I don't believe in Christianity!

[Dimmesdale]

I don't believe in Christianity, and I CANNOT believe it; I DO NOT have the freedom TO believe it, whether you think I do or not!

I have a friend who really, truly believes I can CHOOSE to believe in Christianity. Well, guess what, I can't. I've tried numerous times to believe in the Bible and I've failed everytime - the longest I ever believed was for a couple of weeks. I just couldn't believe in it any longer. I did not "walk away" from the faith intentionally; or if I did, I couldn't help doing what I did; it just happened.

I am sick and even now revolted over people who think that I can "will" myself into believing, that it's so simple. Horse manure. It's not like that at all.

[Divine Insight]

I am sick and even now revolted over people who think that I can "will" myself into believing, that it's so simple. Horse manure. It's not like that at all.

Of course it isn't that simple. People who make that claim have accepted utter nonsense. Because, keep in mind, that all they are doing is regurgitating what they have been told to believe.

They are insulting their own intelligence to even suggest such a thing.

What they are saying is to simple stop thinking entirely. Don't question anything and just pretend that it could make sense. It doesn't make sense. Even famous Christian theists have said that Jesus must have either been a lunatic or God.

Well, if that's he choice, then he most certainly must have been a lunatic.

Of course even that mentality reveal extreme ignorance on the part of the theist, because those aren't the only two possibilities. A third possibility exists that the theists seldom ever consider, and that is that the Gospel rumors of Jesus may themselves not even reflect what some guy might have supposedly done and said some 2000 years ago.

I've met meany theists who fall into that trap. They are originally taught that the Gospels are the 'Gospel Truth'. They take this to mean that we must justify everything the Gospels have to say, and if we can't justify what the Gospels say, then whatever they say must still be TRUE!

This leads a lot of theists to come to believe that whatever the Gospels have to say, must then be true, regardless of whether it makes any rational sense.

This is where the idea that Jesus must then have either been God or an extreme aberration from the norm. Since they can't rationally justify him having been an extreme aberration from the norm, then then conclude that he must have been God.

Once again, a totally erroneous conclusion because the entire conclusion is based on the false premise that the Gospels must be true no matter what.

How many theists have you met that would say things like, "Well if Jesus rose from the dead he must be God!".

Well duh? If that's the case then he probably didn't rise from the dead.

But then they argue, "But it says so in the Gospels and the Gospels are the Gospel Truth!"



I know this sounds silly, but this is the idea that many theists have been convinced by. They simply cannot get it out of their heads that the Gospel rumors do not need to be true at all. And most likely aren't true.

They can't accept this because they have been taught on their mother's knee that the Gospels are the truth. "God made it so!".

Once a person believes that, then they can believe anything. If the Gospels don't make sense, it has to be your problem for not understanding them correctly because everyone knows that they are the Gospel Truth.

That's how this religion recruits its sheep.

Surely you're not going to question the word of God and Jesus Christ!

If you dare to do that you'll be told to go to your room without dinner and not come back out until you are prepared to confess that Jesus is LORD.

Otherwise, you will forever be branded a heretic. A bad person who refuses to conform to the word of God.

So you better watch out
you better not cry
you better now pout
I'm telling you why
the Gospel truth is coming to town!

He's making a list,
Checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice.
the Gospel truth is coming to town!

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake.

With little tin horns and little toy drums
Rooty toot toots and rummy tum tums
the Gospel truth is coming to town!

And if you refuse to believe it, you are an evil person!

[Dimmesdale]

Of course it isn't that simple. People who make that claim have accepted utter nonsense. Because, keep in mind, that all they are doing is regurgitating what they have been told to believe.

True. I think this may be a case where, as Nietzsche put it, convictions are worse enemies of truth than lies.

They are insulting their own intelligence to even suggest such a thing.

What they are saying is to simple stop thinking entirely. Don't question anything and just pretend that it could make sense. It doesn't make sense. Even famous Christian theists have said that Jesus must have either been a lunatic or God.

Well, if that's he choice, then he most certainly must have been a lunatic.

I think, what many theists believe implicitly anyway, is that in matters of faith there is a certain gray area of thought where, if you just relent and give in a little bit, things are nebulous enough that they may very well be believable if you just step back a bit and see things in a different light, "by faith" as it were.

I believe it is possible to do this with certain beliefs where there isn't necessarily a knock-down argument on either side as to which side is true... that things are sufficiently hazy and indeterminate that faith may hold sway given the types of facts that are known....

I did believe for a while, but it just isn't that easy anymore. I can't turn off my mind, sorry.

Of course even that mentality reveal extreme ignorance on the part of the theist, because those aren't the only two possibilities. A third possibility exists that the theists seldom ever consider, and that is that the Gospel rumors of Jesus may themselves not even reflect what some guy might have supposedly done and said some 2000 years ago.

Things were in my opinion distorted/edited/changed. Given the fact that this is a religious text, I've thought in the past, is grounds enough to eye it suspiciously. A friend told me that this is a logical fallacy however. Since given 99 false religions out of a hundred, one may still be true. Just like flipping a coin on its own has a 50% chance of falling heads. Well, ok. But why should we assume at face value that the Gospel writers were interested in being completely impartial? Christianity as a movement, as an institution, is not perfect, just like all institutions and movements have flaws. As a matter of fact, Jesus too probably had moral failures.

[Purple Knight]

I am sick and even now revolted over people who think that I can "will" myself into believing, that it's so simple. Horse manure. It's not like that at all.

The next time someone tries to feed you this tripe, show them an apple.

Let's pretend you show them a green apple.

Tell them to will themselves to believe that the apple is red. Maybe they can; it's not inconceivable that if they close their eyes, someone has spray painted the apple red. So they can easily close their eyes and imagine this.

Now ask them to will themselves to believe that the apple is simultaneously red and non-red.

No person can do this. (Unless perhaps they're insane and/or don't believe in logic.) It demonstrates the inability to will oneself to believe things.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Dimmesdale]

Belief is indeed more a mattrr of heart condition than of intellect. The wicked cannot see light not because their eyes don't work but because their hearts dont.

(Not that Im suggesting you are wicked, thats not MY call,... I'm just agreeing with the principle one cannot "will" oneself into belief)

Biblically one is chosen because God sees something good in you ( general "you". If God looks in your (general your) heart and only sees what is rotten, you (general you) will end up on his trash heap and one cannot self will oneself off it.

JW

[Charles]

[Replying to post 1 by Dimmesdale]

You deem to be describing a fairly immature Christian...

It is written that sin has power over our minds and clouds our judgment so that even though we see and know the proven truth, we will forget, suppress, that truth because we love sin more. This is repeated most clearly in Romans 1.

It is also written that it takes a gift from GOD to open our eyes to our sin and our need for a saviour by faith, and that nothing we can do, no will power we have, can bring us to such a decision.

This is the Christian understanding of rebirth and salvation...not by our will but by HIS: Romans 9:16 It [salvation] does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. and you are right to be frustrated with this non-christian call to a fake salvation.

If you ever do feel a concern about your spiritual state, seek HIM in a spirit of accepting anything HE might bring to you, not just salvation.

[Dimmesdale]

I am sick and even now revolted over people who think that I can "will" myself into believing, that it's so simple. Horse manure. It's not like that at all.

The next time someone tries to feed you this tripe, show them an apple.

Let's pretend you show them a green apple.

Tell them to will themselves to believe that the apple is red. Maybe they can; it's not inconceivable that if they close their eyes, someone has spray painted the apple red. So they can easily close their eyes and imagine this.

Now ask them to will themselves to believe that the apple is simultaneously red and non-red.

No person can do this. (Unless perhaps they're insane and/or don't believe in logic.) It demonstrates the inability to will oneself to believe things.

I actually think that's a rather poor example, because when it comes to belief in faith-based propositions, there's a lot more ambiguity going on.

Let's say you have a primitive person who's lived all his life in a tribal village. Somehow or other he comes to know the "white man" and is bedazzled by his innovations (i.e, electricity, etc). Let's say this person falls ill, and comes to an impasse. He can either be treated by the shamanic rituals he has known all his life, or if he turns to the white man's medicine, he'll be ousted by his tribe as a traitor.

The tribesman has some understanding that the white man is powerful. But how he does not understand. He may think it is due to magic, or demons. He knows there is power but he does not know the nature of it. Let's say this person gets a little bit more educated. He realizes a thing or two about science. In the meantime he's getting more and more ill. He has to come to a decision: go to the white man, or go back to his former life.

Who does he trust? It seems he is at a crossroads. He may choose to believe these white devils are demonically influenced, or he may believe, given his slight scientific education, that it is his own people who are backward fools. It seems there is sufficient ambiguity here to warrant him "choosing" a certain belief system.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to post 7 by Dimmesdale]

I didn't say there was always enough information to make a choice. Often there's not.

I said (and demonstrated) that you can't just will yourself to believe things.

Anyone who expects this of you is, at least potentially, expecting the impossible.

If you don't believe it, you don't believe it.

[Dimmesdale]

[Replying to post 7 by Dimmesdale]

I didn't say there was always enough information to make a choice. Often there's not.

I said (and demonstrated) that you can't just will yourself to believe things.

Anyone who expects this of you is, at least potentially, expecting the impossible.

If you don't believe it, you don't believe it.

Yes, you're right: in certain cases I just can't believe it. Even if there is ambiguity.... I suppose I could (as I have witnessed) "whip" myself into a frenzy of short-term belief, but it fizzles away after a brief period. So yes, for all intents and purposes I cannot believe in any meaningful sense.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, you're right: in certain cases I just can't believe it. Even if there is ambiguity.... I suppose I could (as I have witnessed) "whip" myself into a frenzy of short-term belief, but it fizzles away after a brief period. So yes, for all intents and purposes I cannot believe in any meaningful sense.

Wheres the problem? You cant believe. You don't believe. Period. You don't the things that the bible says will happen tonthose thatndont believe. That leaves you hoping that those things wont happen to you. Its a gamble you dont believe your making. No big deal, as long as you're right.

Jesus compared our time to the days of Noah, saying the majority did not believe what he said would happen would come to pass. Each one must walk the path they see fit and face the conseqences.




JW