Do atheists not have beliefs?

[historia]

You don't know what I already believe (I don't have beliefs BTW)

This is an assertion that has been made by a few atheists on this forum.

Is it coherent for atheists to claim they don't have beliefs?

[Zzyzx]

.

I suppose my main point is that many atheists are not consistently rational.

Who, exactly, is 'consistently rational'?

They hold beliefs.

Some believe the trash will be picked up on schedule. Perhaps that is equivalent to believing in a sky daddy.

How is 'without belief in gods' a belief?

Only an agnostic can truly say they hold no beliefs.

Even they probably believe the trash will be picked up. What a shame.

Only agnostics are consistently rational by admitting that we don't accept anything as true unless it is supported by logic and verifiable evidence.

Only if you define Atheism as something other than 'without belief in gods'

Consider also this Non-Theist statement: “ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence�

In what way is Agnosticism superior?

[AgnosticBoy]

Who, exactly, is 'consistently rational'?

Being consistently rational means applying logic and evidence to ALL matters. When discussing religion, atheists tend to sound like scientists but when discussing other issues (gun rights, covid-19, etc) they sound like liberal Democrats. An agnostic would sound like a scientist on all issues that require the intellect, esp. in a debate.

Some believe the trash will be picked up on schedule. Perhaps that is equivalent to believing in a sky daddy.

I wouldn't consider that an intellectual or debatable matter.

How is 'without belief in gods' a belief?

Sure, atheism is about God's existence. But how can I expect an atheist and liberal to keep their liberalism from influencing their view on God? I mean even if you're not claiming anything about whether or not he exists but you are already against him when your views conflict with His.

Even they probably believe the trash will be picked up. What a shame.

In an intellectual setting or frame of mind, I do not believe. I would accept that it's probable based on logic and evidence but I would not say I know for a fact that it will happen.

Only if you define Atheism as something other than 'without belief in gods'

Atheists are not simply atheists. They have no standard that says that they can't have beliefs on things not related to God's existence. In contrast, agnosticism is about shunning ideologies and beliefs. It's a form of skepticism in a sense and that takes political ideologies, religion, and even some science out of the picture when logic and evidence is lacking. In fact, politically, I'm an independent.

Consider also this Non-Theist statement: “ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence�

Are you also a liberal? When I tell you that God is against same-sex acts/marriage, transgenderism, pre-marital sex, none of your liberalism comes into play on the matter of God? You would already be AGAINST such a God, correct?

In what way is Agnosticism superior?

We are more fair and balanced. And Christians like agnostics more than atheists. There is a reason for that!

[Goat]

You don't know what I already believe (I don't have beliefs BTW)

This is an assertion that has been made by a few atheists on this forum.

Is it coherent for atheists to claim they don't have beliefs?

Well, let's define what an atheist means when they say 'they don't have beliefs'.

They don't have a belief when it comes to a positive assertion of There is a god'.
Many don't have a belief when it comes to the positive assertion of 'there is no god'. However, they lack a belief that there is a god. They provisionally reject the positive claim 'there is a god' due to the lack of evidence or convincing reasoning that there is a god. Some might reject it due to the lack of proper definition of the word 'God'. The lack of belief is specific has to do with the subject of the belief being 'God'.

Now , I am sure most will have beliefs about other subjects, and there would be a number that have the positive belief that there is no God, but the positive belief is not inherent in not believing there is a god.

[Zzyzx]

.

Who, exactly, is 'consistently rational'?

Applying reason and evidence on ALL matters.

Who, exactly, 'applies reason and evidence to all matters'?

Many atheists do not do this.

Humans do not do this (though some may pretend to be free of that human shortcoming)

When discussing religion, they tend to sound like scientists but when discussing other issues (gun rights, covid-19, etc) they sound like liberal Democrats.

Blanket statements are seldom rational or correct.

An agnostic would sound like a scientist on all issues that require the intellect, esp. in a debate.

As a scientist, I disagree.

Some believe the trash will be picked up on schedule. Perhaps that is equivalent to believing in a sky daddy.

I wouldn't consider that an intellectual or debatable matter.

Opinion noted

How is 'without belief in gods' a belief?

Sure, atheism is about God's existence.

Nice dodge. Care to try again, “How is 'without belief in gods' a belief�?

But how can I expect an atheist and liberal to keep their liberalism from influencing them neutral about God?

Your expectations are irrelevant.

I mean even if you're not claiming anything about whether or not he exists but you are already against him when your views conflict with His.

Which of the thousands of proposed 'gods' would that be?

Even they probably believe the trash will be picked up. What a shame.

In an intellectual setting or frame of mind, I do not believe. I would accept that it's probable based on logic and evidence but I would not say I know for a fact that it will happen.

That is a lot of words to say nothing more than my 'probably'.

Only if you define Atheism as something other than 'without belief in gods'

Atheists are not simply atheists.

Correction: The term Atheist means 'without belief in gods' – period – full stop. That term does not attempt to say anything more about the individual.

They have no standard that says that they can't have beliefs on things not related to God's existence.

Back to the trash pick up.

In contrast, agnosticism is about shunning ideologies and beliefs. It's a form of skepticism in a sense and that takes political ideologies, religion, and even some science out of the picture when logic and evidence is lacking. In fact, politically, I'm an independent.

Have you been anointed to speak for Agnosticism?

Consider also this Non-Theist statement: “ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence�

Are you also a liberal?

No I am not. Nor am I a conservative, moderate, or a Democrat or a Republican; or an Atheist or Agnostic, etc.

I am an individual and a Non-Joiner. My stated theistic position, Non-Theist, is chosen to indicate ONLY that I am not a Theist (not a believer in 'gods'). What part of “ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence� is difficult to understand?

If liberals or conservatives happen to agree with me concerning some issues, so be it. I do not join their parade.

When I tell you that God is against same-sex acts/marriage, transgenderism, pre-marital sex, none of your liberalism comes into play on the matter of God?

If you pretend to know what any of the 'gods' is against (or for), I consider you to be full of baloney – speaking as though you knew what is only opinion and conjecture.

You would already be AGAINST such a God, correct?

I am 'against' people claiming to know about gods based on emoting over ancient texts or upon testimonials. None of the invisible, undetectable, proposed 'gods' appear to me to be anything more than products of human imagination writ large (and given human attributes, appendages, and emotions)

In what way is Agnosticism superior?

We are more fair and balanced.

It might be prudent to consult opinions other than your own.

And Christians like agnostics more than atheists. There is a reason for that!

Why is being liked by Christians important? Popularity contest? Ego?

[AgnosticBoy]

Who, exactly, 'applies reason and evidence to all matters'?

Let me start by quoting Thomas Huxley:

Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle ...Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.

And another...

Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe

Humans do not do this (though some may pretend to be free of that human shortcoming)

It's really a matter of choice. If you choose to shun all beliefs and go by only logic and evidence then humans can do it. It's only a shortcoming when we can't do it perfectly. But when you know that you're engaging in beliefs, and do nothing about it, then it is deliberate. It's not that you can't do it but rather that you don't want to.

Nice dodge. Care to try again, “How is 'without belief in gods' a belief�?

It's not a belief.

Even they probably believe the trash will be picked up. What a shame.

In an intellectual setting or frame of mind, I do not believe. I would accept that it's probable based on logic and evidence but I would not say I know for a fact that it will happen.

That is a lot of words to say nothing more than my 'probably'.

The probability is based on logic and evidence.

Atheists are not simply atheists.

Correction: The term Atheist means 'without belief in gods' – period – full stop. That term does not attempt to say anything more about the individual.

The definition of atheism focuses on one thing, but the individual is not defined by that one definition if they have other beliefs.

Have you been anointed to speak for Agnosticism?

Please refer to my Huxley quotes.

When I tell you that God is against same-sex acts/marriage, transgenderism, pre-marital sex, none of your liberalism comes into play on the matter of God?

If you pretend to know what any of the 'gods' is against (or for), I consider you to be full of baloney – speaking as though you knew what is only opinion and conjecture.

I'm not claiming to know what any God wants. I'm only weighing liberalism against what the Christian Bible says about God.

You would already be AGAINST such a God, correct?

I am 'against' people claiming to know about gods based on emoting over ancient texts or upon testimonials. None of the invisible, undetectable, proposed 'gods' appear to me to be anything more than products of human imagination writ large (and given human attributes, appendages, and emotions)

You're not a liberal so my point does not apply to you.

[Bust Nak]

Let me start by quoting Thomas Huxley... And another...

If you choose to shun all beliefs and go by only logic and evidence then humans can do it...

How exactly would that work on one's preconceptions or axioms? I mean basic beliefs like the existence of other minds, an external world, the relative accuracy of our senses and rationality?

The definition of atheism focuses on one thing, but the individual is not defined by that one definition if they have other beliefs.

The same goes for agnosticism, agnostics are not simply agnostics. You have no standard that says that they can't have beliefs on things not related to God's existence. You said you were politically independent, you still have political beliefs.

When I tell you that God is against whatever value you hold dear, none of your value comes into play on the matter of God? You would already be AGAINST such a God, correct?

[AgnosticBoy]

Let me start by quoting Thomas Huxley... And another...

If you choose to shun all beliefs and go by only logic and evidence then humans can do it...

How exactly would that work on one's preconceptions or axioms? I mean basic beliefs like the existence of other minds, an external world, the relative accuracy of our senses and rationality?

I'm not a philosopher so I don't probe that deep. I question the assumptions of science more than I do for logic. So I can say that I shun all beliefs and even axioms except those that are part of logic and science.

The same goes for agnosticism, agnostics are not simply agnostics. You have no standard that says that they can't have beliefs on things not related to God's existence. You said you were politically independent, you still have political beliefs.

On intellectual matters, I have thoughts and even hunches but not beliefs.

It is easy to be without opinion or beliefs when you have no ideologies. It is usually from ideologies, political, philosophical, religious, or otherwise, that people derive their thoughts and beliefs from regarding the various matters and experiences they encounter. I don't accept any ideology as true UNLESS it is based on logic and evidence.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 117 by AgnosticBoy]

In the other threads it's clear you have strong views on the best way to handle the corona virus situation. How exactly can logic and evidence get you to those views, without non-evidence based premises like a strong economy is a worthy goal? Do such premises not qualify as a belief or an axiom, not based on logic, evidence or science?

[polonius]

An atheist has a definite belief. There is no God!

An agnostic on the other hand claims we can't really know and leaves the question open.

At a funeral of a friend, one agnostic began to pray:

"Dear God. If there is a God. Have mercy on his soul, if he had a soul. ETC.

agnostic definition

NOUN
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

[Tcg]

An atheist has a definite belief. There is no God!

This is not true in all cases:

• Atheist
  
  NOUN
  
  a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Lacking belief is not a belief.


Tcg