Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.
  • Tuesday, 9 May 2006
    It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .

    With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.
The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:
  • Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
    13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


    Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:48 pm Accordingly, it should be reasonable to expect the prohibition of homosexual relations to have the same justification behind its implementation.



Biblically speaking there is . Since a sin is anything that God disapproves of the negative effects of homosexual relations is that they damage ones relationship with our creator and each others. This is true of all sin including the sin of sexual immorality (sex outside of biblical marriage) whether homosexual or hetrotsexual in nature.
1CORINTHIANS 6:18, 19

Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body. Do you not know that your body is the temple+ of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God?



JW


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:49 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm ...who deemed homosexuality displeasing to God the creator?
If the bible is to believed, God Himself.
2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm I doubt very much it was Him, or He would have created differently.
I believe that because of the sin of our first parents Adam and Eve, humans sadly do not reflect the perfect standards of our creator (YHWH). Homosexuality, like any other sinful desire/ weakness , is simply a reflection of that inherited imperfection.
ROMANS 5:12

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Biblically speaking, we are all sad to say "defective" with a inborn inclination towards things God hates, but this is not by design. Homosexuality is just one example of this our defective nature.


JW



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

IS GOD'S LOVE UNCONDITIONAL?

2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm I think ... that God loves us all unconditionally, straight or gay.
From the biblical point of view that is not true, Gods love is not unconditional He hates what is bad and he hates those that unrepentantly practice wickedness. He is however also merciful and does not judge people on the basis of their weaknesses or imperfection but rather on their love of goodness and desire to conform to his standards. Gods love is great and he would not reject a homosexual merely because such a person is attracted to someone of the same sex. This does not mean that he has no standards or that just because we are imperfect any behaviours and attitudes are acceptable.
PSALM 97:10

O you who love Jehovah, hate what is bad.
Christians are expected to learn to love what God loves and hate (have an avertion for) what He hates including ALL forms of sexual immorality (whether homosexual or hetrosexual). So it's not just a matter of refraining from certain actions, but a matter of remodling our thinking to abhor, hate, be repelled by the things God condemns as unclean (see Romans 12:2).


JW


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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #34

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:59 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm ...who deemed homosexuality displeasing to God the creator?
If the bible is to believed, God Himself.
2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm I doubt very much it was Him, or He would have created differently.
I believe that because of the sin of our first parents Adam and Eve, humans sadly do not reflect the perfect standards of our creator (YHWH). Homosexuality, like any other sinful desire/ weakness , is simply a reflection of that inherited imperfection.
ROMANS 5:12

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Biblically speaking, we are all sad to say "defective" with a inborn inclination towards things God hates, but this is not by design. Homosexuality is just one example of this our defective nature.


JW
So, to be honest JW, all I can find here is more assertions, without the slightest shred of justification.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:48 pm... the prohibition against homosexual relations between consenting adults has only ever been demonstrated to cause objective harm to God's people on average.
This is an interesting claim,can you perhaps enlarge on this providing relevant evidence.


Thanks,

JW
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 am So, to be honest JW, all I can find here is more assertions, without the slightest shred of justification.

I'm not here to offer "justification", who am I justifying to? I did however offer evidence (in this case scriptural evidence) in support of my beliefs, which seems to be substantially more than you have done in support of your own.


JW
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #37

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:35 pm IS GOD'S LOVE UNCONDITIONAL?
2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:20 pm I think ... that God loves us all unconditionally, straight or gay.
From the biblical point of view that is not true, Gods love is not unconditional


Well, I have to say, that is not my personal experience of Him. I find He loves me, and if He loves me, sinner that I am, He can certainly love you. And if He loves you, I see no reason why He couldn't love anyone. Even those pesky gays.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:35 pm He hates what is bad and he hates those that unrepentantly practice wickedness.
You have yet to show that homosexuality is bad, and if it is, why it is bad.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #38

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:21 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 am So, to be honest JW, all I can find here is more assertions, without the slightest shred of justification.
I'm not here to offer "justification", who am I justifying to? I did however offer evidence (in this case scriptural evidence) in support of my beliefs, which seems to be substantially more than you have done in support of your own...
So, if you can't say why homosexuality is bad, and scripture offers no clue, why should anyone believe you? Maybe it isn't as bad as you think.

Best wishes, 2RM
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #39

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:24 am
You have yet to show that homosexuality is bad, and if it is, why it is bad.

I dont have to do anything. However if you look back you will see I have offered scriptural support as to WHY I believe that homosexual relations* are a sin ("bad"); and why homosexuality (sexual attraction to members of ones own biological sex) has never been part of Gods original design for mankind and is thus "unnatural" from a biblical point of view.

JUDE 7
In the same manner, Sodʹom and Gomorrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality* and pursued unnatural fleshly desires

[*] sexual activity



FURTHER READING What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102016128
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SEX, SIN and ...HOMOSEXUALITY
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #40

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:29 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:24 am
You have yet to show that homosexuality is bad, and if it is, why it is bad.

I don't have to do anything.
Indeed you don't. But it's your credibility at stake, not mine. If you want to lose it, that's not my problem.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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