Buffet Christianity

[Zzyzx]

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Buffet Christianity / Pick and Choose / Cherry Pick

Focus on parts of the Bible and ignore others. Claim that it is 'The word of God' also claim that parts have been superseded (God changed his mind about things?).

Paul/Saul and gospel writers disagree with many teachings of Judaism – but claim that their icon was the Jewish messiah (denied by Jews).

The NT does not list the Ten Commandments. Those come from Judaism (but are revered in Christendom). However, 600+ other rules from Judaism are cast aside as though they don't apply to Christians. Why some and not others? Did God decide which rules no longer apply – or which rules apply to which people? Or did humans decide?

Some Bible stories have come to be accepted as folklore or myth or parables (or simply ignored) – while others are fiercely defended as true accounts. Did Samson push down a large building by brute strength? Did Jonah live for three days inside a fish? Did the sea part on command? Well, maybe not literally, only figuratively.

Did Jesus come back to life? “Now wait a minute. That is a true story.”

Pick and choose.

Which stories, if any, are true and accurate accounts of events that actually happened in the real world – AND how can that be determined?

[Dimmesdale]

I want to point out that, while Reality is very complex, hence hard to pin down (and thus we default to just picking "what we like"), there are certain CLEARER "axes" of reality around which the MURKIER secondary and tertiary aspects revolve . And so, what I would like to posit, is that certain CORE doctrines of Christianity have a high level of EXPLANATORY POWER, and are thus easier to accept than all the less determinate details, which are harder to work out.

Probably the one THEME that comes most presently to my mind is that of Justice. Christianity actually has, as a general worldview, an answer to the problem of Justice in the world: the Cross. Naturalism doesn't. Pantheism doesn't. And those religions that make a point of justice either fail to substantiate their claims (karma and reincarnation in Hinduism/Buddhism) or are internally incoherent (Islam doesn't have an actual mechanism whereby God may be appeased, we can only keep our fingers crossed that we will be forgiven). It is only with Christianity that the substitutionary atonement theory is worked out comprehensively and consistently, it seems.

I would say that similar other "axes" are found only in Christianity: themes like Love, the dysfunction of Sin, etc. These are primary. The details CAN be worked out, as in any other theory, they may be difficult to work out, but we don't throw out the whole theory for all that (take Quantum Physics).

[brunumb]

Probably the one THEME that comes most presently to my mind is that of Justice. Christianity actually has, as a general worldview, an answer to the problem of Justice in the world: the Cross.

Substitutionary atonement is certainly not about justice. The whole Jesus scenario is preposterous to begin with, but allowing your innocent son to be killed to satisfy your need to punish sinners is reprehensible. Even then, Jesus didn't stay dead so the whole episode was just a charade. Justice is not a problem. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. It may not seem fair, but that is just life. The justice that seems to be offered by Christianity is no more than smoke and mirrors. It might comfort some to believe that they can have their transgressions wiped away, or that bad people will get their comeuppance when they die, but in reality that is just wishful thinking at work.

[Dimmesdale]

Substitutionary atonement is certainly not about justice. The whole Jesus scenario is preposterous to begin with, but allowing your innocent son to be killed to satisfy your need to punish sinners is reprehensible.

For a long time I thought like you, but I think this springs from a failure to understand... grace.

Grace is like, or akin to, being forgiven a debt. In law even now if someone pays a fine for you, you don't have to pay it, and you feel relieved. I have felt relieved, felt a burden lifted off from me, when I believed. It was like being forgiven a debt, except infinitely more. I felt liberated, new, a whole other person. Perhaps if you felt something similar, you would think there is more than nonsense in this proposition.

Someone has to pay the debt of sin. This comes from a basic understanding of justice. When a law is broken, a punishment is incurred. We may not see justice in this life, all the time, but that does not, or should not, vitiate it of its force, of its claim. Else, there ain't nothing to believe in in this world.

Even then, Jesus didn't stay dead so the whole episode was just a charade.

This is easier to answer because it shows your ignorance more truly.

You have to understand what really happened at the Cross. Ignorance of this is what makes your dismissal so worthless. You have no idea what Jesus really went through. This is actually the problem with much of modern Christianity. It teaches a very shallow view of what Jesus had to endure. He endured more than some physical pains. His suffering was unimaginable, a punishment so infinitely horrendous that no words can ever possibly describe it. This is what Christianity, authentic and not watered down Christianity, claims, and your failure to really understand it causes you to dismiss Jesus death as insignificant whereas no one's suffering can compare to his infinite suffering.

Justice is not a problem.

Well, what if you were wronged in some deep way? Would you be so ready to dismiss it? Even if you were, I think this sort of appraisal stems from a cynical and unnatural frame of mind. Healthy people care about justice, and see it as a problem in this world. That is my view.

Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. It may not seem fair, but that is just life. The justice that seems to be offered by Christianity is no more than smoke and mirrors. It might comfort some to believe that they can have their transgressions wiped away, or that bad people will get their comeuppance when they die, but in reality that is just wishful thinking at work.

How do you know it's wishful thinking? How do you know its "smoke and mirrors?" Isn't that simply your opinion? Why should I believe your speculations?

[brunumb]

Grace is like, or akin to, being forgiven a debt. In law even now if someone pays a fine for you, you don't have to pay it, and you feel relieved. I have felt relieved, felt a burden lifted off from me, when I believed. It was like being forgiven a debt, except infinitely more. I felt liberated, new, a whole other person.

That suggests that you would be relieved and happy if, after committing murder, someone else took your place and was executed. Your analogy is really rather twee.

[brunumb]

You have no idea what Jesus really went through. This is actually the problem with much of modern Christianity. It teaches a very shallow view of what Jesus had to endure. He endured more than some physical pains. His suffering was unimaginable, a punishment so infinitely horrendous that no words can ever possibly describe it.

You have absolutely no idea either! You have simply extrapolated from what was written and embellished a story to shore up your belief. Thousands of people were subjected to the horrors associated with crucifixion without any expectation of coming back, good as new, a couple of days later. For centuries people have endured far more agony and torture than Jesus allegedly did. Consider being burned alive at the stake. If Jesus really did take on the sins of the world and paid for them as claimed, he should now be burning in hell for eternity.

[brunumb]

Well, what if you were wronged in some deep way? Would you be so ready to dismiss it? Even if you were, I think this sort of appraisal stems from a cynical and unnatural frame of mind. Healthy people care about justice, and see it as a problem in this world.

Most of us care about justice, but some unfortunately get it confused with tit-for-tat or revenge. Obsessing over people getting away with their wrongdoing is decidedly not healthy, particularly when it involves hoping that God will give them what we think they deserve.

[brunumb]

How do you know it's wishful thinking? How do you know its "smoke and mirrors?" Isn't that simply your opinion? Why should I believe your speculations?

That neatly sums up the crux of the problem with religious belief. The Bible, from creation to resurrection, is so replete with absurdities that it makes an allegedly intelligent supreme being look like a complete doofus. Other supposedly holy books are much the same. Their survival is largely due to the incredible power of indoctrination in vulnerable minds.

[Dimmesdale]

You have no idea what Jesus really went through. This is actually the problem with much of modern Christianity. It teaches a very shallow view of what Jesus had to endure. He endured more than some physical pains. His suffering was unimaginable, a punishment so infinitely horrendous that no words can ever possibly describe it.

You have absolutely no idea either! You have simply extrapolated from what was written and embellished a story to shore up your belief. Thousands of people were subjected to the horrors associated with crucifixion without any expectation of coming back, good as new, a couple of days later. For centuries people have endured far more agony and torture than Jesus allegedly did. Consider being burned alive at the stake. If Jesus really did take on the sins of the world and paid for them as claimed, he should now be burning in hell for eternity.

The point is, you claimed that Jesus' payment was a charade because he didn't stay dead. I'm not arguing whether or not Jesus suffered or Christianity is correct, only that you don't take Christian doctrine seriously and dismiss it on it's face.....

The point is, Christianity has an answer to your objection. Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will. You may not believe this answer, but you can't make the flippant objection that "well, he didn't stay dead." I and other Christians will call you out on it.

[Clownboat]

The point is, you claimed that Jesus' payment was a charade because he didn't stay dead.

Jesus didn't stay dead. Apparently, the waiges of sin is being dead for a couple days. Is that how it reads in your Bible?
Why is Christianity always at war with language?

death
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.
the state of being dead.
the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue.

According to the story, Jesus never actually reached the end of life.

I'm not arguing whether or not Jesus suffered or Christianity is correct, only that you don't take Christian doctrine seriously and dismiss it on it's face.....

Do you not dismiss competing god concepts? Seems like a terrible defense to use here.

The point is, Christianity has an answer to your objection.

Book and verse please.

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will. You may not believe this answer, but you can't make the flippant objection that "well, he didn't stay dead." I and other Christians will call you out on it.

By the way, Jesus didn't stay dead! According to the defenition of death above, he never reached it.

[Zzyzx]

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.

That is quite a claim. Kindly describe the suffering and present verifiable evidence to show that it is 'unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will', and that the account is true and accurate.