Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

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Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations (particularly among younger generations)?
New Pew survey finds self-identified US Christians dropped 12% in a decade, as number of those claiming no religious affiliation surged

Over the last decade, the share of Americans who say they attend religious services at least once or twice a month dropped by 7 percentage points, while the share who say they attend religious services less often — if at all — rose by the same degree.

Empty Tomb, a Christian organization based in Champaign, Illinois, that researches religious giving, says the decline is longstanding. According to its research, Americans gave about 3% of their disposable income to churches in 1968, and less than 2.2% in 2016.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/decline-o ... oll-finds/
The number of Americans who call themselves Christian declined from 77% ten years ago to 65% in 2019. What is worse (or better), the absolute number of Christians declined. In 2019, the country had thirteen million fewer Christians at one hundred sixty-six million.

Protestants have nine million fewer members, two million less born-again’s, and seven million less non-born-again’s. Catholics are down by two million. Mormons were up slightly, but their % remained the same at 2%.

People who identified themselves as atheists, agnostics, or “nothing in particular” increased by twenty-seven million to sixty-seven million people. Today, 17% of Americans say they never attend religious services up from 11% a decade ago.
The data also shows a wide gap between older Americans and Millennials in their levels of religious affiliation and attendance. People born between 1928 and 1945 describe themselves as Christians 84% of the time. Baby Boomers only 76% of the time. In stark contrast, only 49% of Millenials describe themselves as Christian. Four-in-ten Millenials described themselves as “nones,” and one-in-ten identified with non-Christian faith.
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2020/06/u- ... apid-pace/
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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #11

Post by Overcomer »

There's a wonderful Ted Talk with Mark Liddell in which he talks about how any set of statistics might have something lurking inside of it and can, therefore, be misleading. In order to understand the statistics, we have to study the actual situations that they are describing because, quite frankly, people can use statistics to manipulate others and promote their own agenda.

Liddell uses the example of two hospitals which both offer surgery that you are contemplating. You read that Hospital A and Hospital B have both performed 1000 surgeries. While 900 of the patients in Hospital A survived, only 800 did in Hospital B. So you think, "I better go to Hospital A because it has a higher survival rate."

But what if I tell you that only 100 of the patients entering Hospital A did so in poor health while 400 of the 1000 that entered Hospital B were in bad health. And what if I tell you that only 30 of the 100 patients in poor health survived in Hospital A whereas 210 of the 400 people in poor health survived in Hospital B. You now realize that Hospital B is your better option because you looked beyond the statistics.

You can listen to the whole talk here:

https://ed.ted.com/lessons/how-statisti ... rk-liddell


So how about these statistics regarding church attendance, religious self-identification, etc.? In a New York Times article entitled The Overstated Collapse of American Christianity, writer Ross Douthat suggests the statistics are misleading. As with the hospital scenario above, he goes behind the numbers to see what's going on. For example, he notes that lukewarm Christianity may be declining much more dramatically than intense religiosity. In other words, nominal Christians, that is, those who are Christian in name only and not in fact, who started to attend a church for whatever reason, stopped going. Their affiliation was weak -- and meaningless -- to begin with. But the number of born-again, Spirit-filled believers remains strong.

Put it another way, if the Republican Party has X number of members, but some people joined for a superficial reason (their friend did so they did to, they wanted the experience of being part of a political party, etc., etc. etc), but they leave eventually because they never took it seriously, never backed the claims whole-heartedly, etc., does that mean the Republican Party is in danger of collapsing because it has lost members? Not at all, because the committed members remain strong and will carry on.

Douthat also notes that just saying that people are no longer attending a church doesn't mean that they have become atheists. Their interest in the divine/spiritual may still be strong. They have just chosen to pursue that interest in a different way.

He has other points to make, but I won't repeat them all. Those interested can read the article here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/opin ... anity.html

It's also misleading to compare statistics of today with those of the past re: religious affiliation. For example, up until the 1990s, Pew polls asked people to tick off which religion they belonged to -- Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. But they did not offer a category of "none of the above" until the 1990s which means there were probably lots of people before that choosing Catholic out of that list, for example, simply because they didn't fit in any of the other categories offered. Again, we're talking about nominal Christians. Only in the last few decades, could people choose "none" as a category. But here's the thing: What the Pew poll presents is the fact that "Nones" have NO affiliation with a religious organization. It does NOT say that they have no religious beliefs. That's an important fact to consider when looking at the statistics.

For more see here:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... anity.html

The interesting thing is that Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds in countries that are less affluent than the U.S. Given that church attendance goes up in times of great trouble and trial (following 9/11 for example), it suggests that people realize a need for someone with greater power in difficult days. At the other end of the spectrum, we have people who, when wealthy and healthy and enjoying good times, start to think they don't need God because they can do it all. That's when we see people drift away -- it's pride which, as the Bible notes, goes before a fall!

Of course, I could have saved myself all that writing if I had just given a Biblical answer as to why we see some Americans leaving the church and turning their backs on God:

"But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God . . . . who are always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim. 3:1-4, 7).

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #12

Post by Dimmesdale »

Christianity I think is in large part being rejected by (technologically) advanced Western countries because people are too addicted to wealth and wine and other objects of desire.

It isn't true that we (Western democracies) are advancing in all respects. People's attentions are being diverted to earthly things, and in that same spirit there is greater lethargy with regard to spiritual things.....

One benefit of poverty is that you are not so attached to fleeting, material things. Your situation forces you to think more about the next life, given that this life isn't all that is.... Of course, one may also be worried about the present life to the exclusion of any other, if you are laboring under crushing poverty and paying the bills is your top-priority, that's a risk too. The culture doesn't help either. In America we are inundated with images of wealth and prosperity, to such an extent that even poor families are indoctrinated.... On the other hand, take a culture like India where there is still a potent spiritual spark. Hinduism isn't Christianity, but in some respects they are better off than we in still having spiritual culture and tradition. In America things reduce to opportunism/business/general money-making. That's my opinion.

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #13

Post by Zzyzx »

Denial and excuses may help Apologists here feel better about declining numbers in Christendom. Pointing out that numbers are increasing in Africa may help morale. Ignoring reality tends to make problems worse. As a Non-Theist, I encourage those so inclined to continue ignoring, denying, and making excuses.

Especially ignore the loss of younger generations. Just pretend it isn't happening. Keep thinking that the statistics are wrong or that there will be a magical turn-around. Don't admit that the church is losing touch with people and for sure don't ask why or don't ask what, if anything, can be done to reverse trends.

Ignore that a quarter of the US population identifies as “no religious preference” and that the percentage is rising rapidly. Blame 'liberal professors' who teach people to think and pollsters who are all part of the imaginary 'great anti-religious conspiracy'. Don't worry about what happens as older generations of pew-warmers and donors die out.

During the pandemic, those who listen to preachers who advocate going to services and continuing donations should help accelerate the decline.

An interesting read: https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/chu ... cades.aspx
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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #14

Post by Dimmesdale »

Zzyzx wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:11 pm Denial and excuses may help Apologists here feel better about declining numbers in Christendom. Pointing out that numbers are increasing in Africa may help morale. Ignoring reality tends to make problems worse. As a Non-Theist, I encourage those so inclined to continue ignoring, denying, and making excuses.

Especially ignore the loss of younger generations. Just pretend it isn't happening. Keep thinking that the statistics are wrong or that there will be a magical turn-around. Don't admit that the church is losing touch with people and for sure don't ask why or don't ask what, if anything, can be done to reverse trends.

Ignore that a quarter of the US population identifies as “no religious preference” and that the percentage is rising rapidly. Blame 'liberal professors' who teach people to think and pollsters who are all part of the imaginary 'great anti-religious conspiracy'. Don't worry about what happens as older generations of pew-warmers and donors die out.

During the pandemic, those who listen to preachers who advocate going to services and continuing donations should help accelerate the decline.

An interesting read: https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/chu ... cades.aspx
Who's ignoring these these things exactly? I know of many, many apologists who are trying to address the issues you bring up. Tim Keller for example. Have you read any of his work? He's pretty well read, and tries to engage the culture....

Overall, I see more rhetoric than substance in your post. Yes, many, many people, in the US are leaving Christianity and other religions. A lot of apologists actually say we are living in a POST-CHRISTIAN society. So, they are not unaware.

A magical turn-around? Sounds like you don't accept the very premise of the supernatural held by Christians, that God takes an active hand in conversion.....

That's very ignorant of you actually. :shock:

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #15

Post by Zzyzx »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm Who's ignoring these these things exactly?
Did you read post #11 and the rest of the thread?
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm I know of many, many apologists who are trying to address the issues you bring up.
Perhaps it would be prudent to actually read what I said, “Denial and excuses may help Apologists here feel better about declining numbers in Christendom.” What part of 'here' is difficult to understand?
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm Tim Keller for example. Have you read any of his work? He's pretty well read, and tries to engage the culture....
I would be more than happy to debate Tim here in Head to Head -- on a level playing field where god beliefs are NOT given favorable treatment and where the Bible is not considered authoritative.
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm Overall, I see more rhetoric than substance in your post.
Opinion noted – and of no significance to me. I post ideas for readers to consider in contrast to views posted by Apologists. It is not surprising that doing so meets with disapproval from Apologists.
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm Yes, many, many people, in the US are leaving Christianity and other religions. A lot of apologists actually say we are living in a POST-CHRISTIAN society. So, they are not unaware.
Some Apologists seem aware that Christianity is declining. Friends here in the Bible Belt who are ministers have expressed great concern; however, many pew-warmers deny that Christianity is in decline.
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm A magical turn-around? Sounds like you don't accept the very premise of the supernatural held by Christians, that God takes an active hand in conversion.....
Well, that much is right. I don't believe in magic. Is there some compelling reason that I should believe in magic?
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:24 pm That's very ignorant of you actually.
Very Christian attitude noted. Perhaps in some circles, it is regarded as ignorant for a person to not believe in magic. This sub-forum does not make that assumption – perhaps Bible Study or Holy Huddle sub-forums would be more comfortable for magic believers (where they need not tolerate non-believers).
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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #16

Post by Diagoras »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm One benefit of poverty is that you are not so attached to fleeting, material things.
I’m sure it wasn’t meant this way, but that statement could easily come across as patronising. Ask a poor man whose bicycle has been stolen, thus depriving him of the only way he can travel to work, whether he’s ‘attached to fleeting, material things’, and I suspect he won’t be sanguine about it. Having less generally means you attach relatively greater importance to the few things you do possess.

And a huge number of those people in India (and many other countries) are probably trying desperately to attain the same level of material comfort that they perceive those in Western Europe and the U.S to have. Whether you like it or not, the drive to escape the clutches of poverty and attain some measure of comfort and happiness through increased wealth is accelerating in many parts of the world. Those that recognise that their successes are linked to their own efforts and not to petitioning some celestial deity (and tithing to its earthly representatives) are likely to let that ‘spiritual spark’ dim a little, once they’ve learned that they don’t need it in their life.

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #17

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:11 pm …Especially ignore the loss of younger generations. Just pretend it isn't happening. Keep thinking that the statistics are wrong or that there will be a magical turn-around. Don't admit that the church is losing touch with people and for sure don't ask why or don't ask what, if anything, can be done to reverse trends.

Ignore that a quarter of the US population identifies as “no religious preference” and that the percentage is rising rapidly. Blame 'liberal professors' who teach people to think and pollsters who are all part of the imaginary 'great anti-religious conspiracy'…
Why are you so worried about the matter?

I think what you see now is just the result of that older generations already rejected God. Older generations were not faithful to God. They have rejected what Jesus said and replaced it with their own doctrines (like Trinity). And human doctrines just don’t last. It is easy for young generation to reject them. And unfortunately, it seems there are not many who teach what Jesus says in the Bible. Instead young people have their atheist/communist teachers to mock the strawman Christianity, which makes it easy for them to reject Christianity.

However, maybe that is not the real problem. The message Jesus has, is just something that many don’t accept, even if heard properly, why else would he say:

"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matt. 7:13-14

For many are called, but few chosen.
Matt. 22:14

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
Matt. 7:21-23

So, even if person would call himself “Christian”, it doesn’t necessary mean anything meaningful. Jesus told also this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

So, when the question is, why is he rejected, maybe the reason is that they don’t like the truth?

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

Post #18

Post by Zzyzx »

1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm Why are you so worried about the matter?
Worried? I applaud the decline in superstition and magical beliefs.
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm I think what you see now is just the result of that older generations already rejected God. Older generations were not faithful to God.
What, if anything, verifies that younger generations are any more 'faithful to God' than older generations? It seems as though the young are moving away from 'faithfulness' to any gods.
Back in the late 1970s, 90 percent of American adults identified as Christians and that declined to 80 percent by the early 2000s. The decline has continued and by the late 2010s, the share of U.S. adults identifying as Christian stood at 71 percent. Back in the late 1970s, only seven percent of the population said they had "no religion" and the GSS found that the share went up to 22 percent by the late 2010s.
https://www.statista.com/chart/19692/sh ... christian/

Nationwide Catholic membership increased between 2000 and 2017, but the number of churches declined by nearly 11%. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) lost about 30% of its congregation and closed 12.5% of its churches: the United Methodist church lost 16.7% of its congregation and 10.2% of its churches. The Presbyterian Church has had the sharpest decline in church membership: between 2000 and 2015 they lost over 40% of their congregation and 15.4% of their churches.[33] Infant baptism has also decreased; nationwide, Catholic baptisms are down by nearly 34%, and ELCA baptisms by over 40%.[33]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_o ... ted_States
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm They have rejected what Jesus said and replaced it with their own doctrines (like Trinity).
The trinity concept was formulated and enforced towards the end of the fourth century. Has Christianity been downhill since then?
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm And human doctrines just don’t last. It is easy for young generation to reject them.
All doctrine is human (has not been shown to originate from extra-human sources).

Societies and their beliefs change over time. Traditionalists may wish it wasn't so, but their denial that change occurs is belied by the wealth of changes that occur within just one lifetime.
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm And unfortunately, it seems there are not many who teach what Jesus says in the Bible. Instead young people have their atheist/communist teachers to mock the strawman Christianity, which makes it easy for them to reject Christianity.
Jesus say NOTHING in the Bible. The words are those of writers who have not been shown to have even heard Jesus speak. They purport to know exact words used by a Jewish preacher fifty or more years earlier.
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm However, maybe that is not the real problem. The message Jesus has, is just something that many don’t accept, even if heard properly, why else would he say:
That is what Matthew says. Did he witness Jesus speaking? Did he record the words exactly at that time?
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm So, even if person would call himself “Christian”, it doesn’t necessary mean anything meaningful.
Agree. You (generic term) calling yourself Christian doesn't mean anything (meaningful).
1213 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm So, when the question is, why is he rejected, maybe the reason is that they don’t like the truth?
Part of the reason Jesus is rejected is that he was not the 'messiah' supposedly promised to the Jews (according to the Jews). Even though Paul/Saul and associates attempted to deify a wandering Jewish preacher after he died, that was just grafted onto Jewish scripture and pitched to gentiles (since the attempt failed where Jesus is said to have lived and preached).

It should be illuminating that Jesus was supposedly run out of his own hometown as a fraud.
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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

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Post by Quantrill »

Zzyzx wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:04 am Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations (particularly among younger generations)?
Christianity is declining because God is moving towards again working with the nation of Israel as His people. So, He is shifting His people to Israel. Whereas now they are of every tribe and nation who turn to Jesus Christ.

Numbers, or the lack of numbers, doesn't affect what God is doing. Remember, Noah was the last righteous man on earth by the time of the flood.

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Re: Why is Christianity declining in the US and other advanced / technological / educated nations?

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Quantrill wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:22 pm Christianity is declining because God is moving towards again working with the nation of Israel as His people.
Do you have a source for this revelation?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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