Buffet Christianity

[Zzyzx]

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Buffet Christianity / Pick and Choose / Cherry Pick

Focus on parts of the Bible and ignore others. Claim that it is 'The word of God' also claim that parts have been superseded (God changed his mind about things?).

Paul/Saul and gospel writers disagree with many teachings of Judaism – but claim that their icon was the Jewish messiah (denied by Jews).

The NT does not list the Ten Commandments. Those come from Judaism (but are revered in Christendom). However, 600+ other rules from Judaism are cast aside as though they don't apply to Christians. Why some and not others? Did God decide which rules no longer apply – or which rules apply to which people? Or did humans decide?

Some Bible stories have come to be accepted as folklore or myth or parables (or simply ignored) – while others are fiercely defended as true accounts. Did Samson push down a large building by brute strength? Did Jonah live for three days inside a fish? Did the sea part on command? Well, maybe not literally, only figuratively.

Did Jesus come back to life? “Now wait a minute. That is a true story.”

Pick and choose.

Which stories, if any, are true and accurate accounts of events that actually happened in the real world – AND how can that be determined?

[Dimmesdale]

The point is, you claimed that Jesus' payment was a charade because he didn't stay dead.

Jesus didn't stay dead. Apparently, the waiges of sin is being dead for a couple days. Is that how it reads in your Bible?
Why is Christianity always at war with language?

death
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.
the state of being dead.
the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue.

According to the story, Jesus never actually reached the end of life.

If this is the extent of your knowledge of Christianity and the theology surrounding the Cross of Christ, then you are very, very ignorant.

Yes, Jesus did in fact die after his Passion, but that wasn't what atoned for sin. It was his being "forsaken by the Father" and being "crushed" by the "wrath of God" that, instead of falling upon you and me, fell upon Jesus. This is why, in the Garden before he was arrested, he prayed to God "let this cup pass from me." This is why in the Garden he sweat drops of blood. Because he was afraid, not of mere crucifixion, but of the Cup of God's Wrath that he had to drink. If he was merely afraid of execution in the generic sense, then Jesus was a coward compared to the martyrs Nero had crucified upside down and set on fire. What Jesus feared was infinitely worse; death in the spiritual sense, a kind of spiritual dying.

I'm not arguing whether or not Jesus suffered or Christianity is correct, only that you don't take Christian doctrine seriously and dismiss it on it's face.....

Do you not dismiss competing god concepts? Seems like a terrible defense to use here.

I have the decency to respect the internal logic of any given point of view. I don't dismiss what I'm arguing with without trying to see the other persons' point of view. I think you should extend that courtesy others, otherwise you will only see things through YOUR perspective, and that's seriously limited.

The point is, Christianity has an answer to your objection.

Book and verse please.

Matthew 27:46

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will. You may not believe this answer, but you can't make the flippant objection that "well, he didn't stay dead." I and other Christians will call you out on it.

By the way, Jesus didn't stay dead! According to the defenition of death above, he never reached it.
[/quote]

Physical death is nothing compared to spiritual death. And if you think I'm making this up, then just open your eyes to the realities of depression, child sexual abuse, and the emotional agony that the human race has endured for ages. And all that might give you a glimpse into the dying heart of the Savior.

[Dimmesdale]

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.

That is quite a claim. Kindly describe the suffering and present verifiable evidence to show that it is 'unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will', and that the account is true and accurate.

What I'm giving is the authentic Christian P.O.V. I'm being faithful to what actual Christianity teaches, and refuting the ignorant misreading of Christianity as conjured by brunumb. I don't have to "prove" anything here, I'm simply pointing out brunumb's mistaken view of what Christianity teaches....

[Dimmesdale]

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.

That is quite a claim. Kindly describe the suffering and present verifiable evidence to show that it is 'unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will', and that the account is true and accurate.

What I'm giving is the authentic Christian P.O.V. I'm being faithful to what actual Christianity teaches, and refuting the ignorant misreading of Christianity as conjured by brunumb, that "oh, Jesus didn't stay dead, so how is that a legitimate punishment, etc". I don't have to "prove" anything here, I'm simply pointing out brunumb's mistaken view of what Christianity teaches....

[brunumb]

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.

You have repeated that claim once again, and once again I will say that it is unwarranted. You do not know what suffering Jesus experienced, and based on the biblical account it was far from what countless other humans have endured throughout history. If that is the basis of your Christianity, it is not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

[brunumb]

It was his being "forsaken by the Father" and being "crushed" by the "wrath of God" that, instead of falling upon you and me, fell upon Jesus.

Please demonstrate where Jesus experienced this 'spiritual death' that he feared. In any case it was only for a few hours out of infinity. Unsaved humans no doubt don't have that benefit.

Physical death is nothing compared to spiritual death. And if you think I'm making this up, then just open your eyes to the realities of depression, child sexual abuse, and the emotional agony that the human race has endured for ages. And all that might give you a glimpse into the dying heart of the Savior.

Emotional and physical agony have been inflicted on human beings in the name of religion throughout history. Interesting that you bring up child sexual abuse in the context of unimaginable spiritual death. Religious organisations seem to be havens for such practices. I wonder why. Is it that the close association with an allegedly holy being engenders undue trust in these heinous offenders and offers them protection?

Edited to add: I am curious as to how you know that "physical death is nothing compared to spiritual death".

[Zzyzx]

Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.

That is quite a claim. Kindly describe the suffering and present verifiable evidence to show that it is 'unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will', and that the account is true and accurate.

What I'm giving is the authentic Christian P.O.V. I'm being faithful to what actual Christianity teaches,

There is no 'authentic Christian POV' accepted throughout Christendom. Christians can't even unanimously agree regarding the trinity / 3 in 1 gods concept.

Instead, there are thousands of different opinions – equal in merit to your own.

You claim to know that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.” I challenge that claim and ask for verification.

and refuting the ignorant misreading of Christianity as conjured by brunumb, that "oh, Jesus didn't stay dead, so how is that a legitimate punishment, etc".

You are entitled to disagree with Brunmb; however, your claim regarding suffering is just hot air unless you can verify it as true.

I don't have to "prove" anything here, I'm simply pointing out brunumb's mistaken view of what Christianity teaches....

If you participate in debates here you ARE expected and required to substantiate any claims, statements, stories you present that are challenged.

If you don't intend to 'prove' anything (provide substantiation), this is the wrong place to post. Perhaps Bible Study or Holy Huddle sub-forums would be more appropriate.

[Dimmesdale]

There is no 'authentic Christian POV' accepted throughout Christendom. Christians can't even unanimously agree regarding the trinity / 3 in 1 gods concept.

Instead, there are thousands of different opinions – equal in merit to your own.

You claim to know that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.” I challenge that claim and ask for verification.

So everything is subjective in your view? If I take your line of thought to its logical conclusion, not only all Christian truth is up for grabs, but so is all other truth. I just have to quibble with regard to what "verification" is. Is the sun hot? Why should I believe that? Why should I trust science? Maybe the sun is an igloo.

You are entitled to disagree with Brunmb; however, your claim regarding suffering is just hot air unless you can verify it as true.

I can substantiate it with scripture, but I don't expect that will get much support here. You have a different view to what "verification" consists of. This is the problem with subjectivism.

I don't have to "prove" anything here, I'm simply pointing out brunumb's mistaken view of what Christianity teaches....

If you participate in debates here you ARE expected and required to substantiate any claims, statements, stories you present that are challenged.

If you don't intend to 'prove' anything (provide substantiation), this is the wrong place to post. Perhaps Bible Study or Holy Huddle sub-forums would be more appropriate.
[/quote]

I can point to many things: scripture, church history, scholarship, philosophy, etc.

I can't, however, "verify" things with apodictic certainty (like 1+1=2). Neither can you, frankly, about some of the most fundamental things we both nonetheless agree upon.....

[brunumb]

If I take your line of thought to its logical conclusion, not only all Christian truth is up for grabs, but so is all other truth. I just have to quibble with regard to what "verification" is. Is the sun hot? Why should I believe that? Why should I trust science? Maybe the sun is an igloo.

But we don't really have any Christian "truth". We have an ancient book of unverified claims accepted as truth on nothing more than faith. Dismissing all other "truth" as being up for grabs is really rather naive. You should trust science as far as it is demonstrably reliable. If you believe that the sun is not hot the flaw does not lie in the science.

[Dimmesdale]

But we don't really have any Christian "truth". We have an ancient book of unverified claims accepted as truth on nothing more than faith. Dismissing all other "truth" as being up for grabs is really rather naive. You should trust science as far as it is demonstrably reliable. If you believe that the sun is not hot the flaw does not lie in the science.

Yeah, that just shows how little you've read regarding Christian history. Christianity IS NOT "2000 years making it up as you go along." That is inaccurate. There is tremendous consistency regarding many doctrines of the Church that have remained unaltered virtually since the beginning, and find their logical source in terms of the Bible....

This is not to say that all denominations agree. They don't. But to say that there is no unity at all is to be, well, tremendously ignorant of things like scripture and the history of Western thought in general. There are heresies nowadays that Protestants, (at least mainline Protestants), Catholics and Orthodox, would all unanimously condemn.

Of course, there are groups at the fringe of Christianity. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses come to mind. But they are not mainstream. When it comes to the basic, foundational doctrines, there is a great deal of consistency.

Speaking of science, there are a lot of fringe scientists.

Does that mean there is no unity with regard to science?

[Zzyzx]

You claim to know that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.” I challenge that claim and ask for verification.

So everything is subjective in your view?

Very poor guess. It would be prudent to stick with what is presented – not what you imagine.

I don't recall the gospels saying that Jesus suffered worse than anyone ever has or will. Is that something you just made up? If so, it certainly shows a powerful imagination.

If I take your line of thought to its logical conclusion, not only all Christian truth is up for grabs, but so is all other truth.

No need to panic. Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”

Debate is a bit different from pontificating in church or to fellow believers.

I just have to quibble with regard to what "verification" is. Is the sun hot? Why should I believe that? Why should I trust science? Maybe the sun is an igloo.

Excellent demonstration of Apologetic thinking. Perhaps readers are really impressed with the depth of thought and reasoning.

I do not suggest that anyone should trust science. Many are not capable of understanding even the most basic scientific ideas and information (let alone trusting). Many others 'understand' at the level of television presentations. Quite a few seem convinced that all of science is a grand worldwide conspiracy against religion.

Therefore, if people wish to think the sun is an igloo, that does not surprise me and does not motivate a teaching mode.

You are entitled to disagree with Brunmb; however, your claim regarding suffering is just hot air unless you can verify it as true.

I can substantiate it with scripture, but I don't expect that will get much support here.

Scripture is not considered substantiation in this sub-forum. It may go over well in Bible Study or Holy Huddle sub-forums.

You have a different view to what "verification" consists of. This is the problem with subjectivism.

I tend to use words as they are defined in common use dictionaries. Verify is defined as: To demonstrate the truth or accuracy of, as by the presentation of evidence www.thefreedictionary.com

It is not uncommon here for Apologists to attempt to use the Bible to 'verify' its own Bible tales. That is somewhat less convincing than arguing that an ancient tale is true because 'My mother said so'.

I don't have to "prove" anything here, I'm simply pointing out brunumb's mistaken view of what Christianity teaches....

If you participate in debates here you ARE expected and required to substantiate any claims, statements, stories you present that are challenged.

If you don't intend to 'prove' anything (provide substantiation), this is the wrong place to post. Perhaps Bible Study or Holy Huddle sub-forums would be more appropriate.

I can point to many things: scripture, church history, scholarship, philosophy, etc.

Those may be convincing in Sunday School or in Christians only environments; however, they are meaningless in this sub-forum where there is no agreement to accept religious tomes as proof of truth.

I can't, however, "verify" things with apodictic certainty (like 1+1=2). Neither can you, frankly, about some of the most fundamental things we both nonetheless agree upon.....

Feel free to challenge of my statements of fact that you feel are in error.