Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

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TruthSeeker916
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Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #1

Post by TruthSeeker916 »

Hello all. So ive read the chapter in Obadiah, the only chapter in the book. And to me it kind of sounds like it's describing America. But God calls it Esau (Edom). Here let me post this scripture.

Obadiah 1:1-6 (KJV) "The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: (gentiles) thou art greatly despised.

The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?

How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

Ok so reading that the first thing popped to mind was this sounds like America. He says this man is very proud, but the gentiles despise him (non israelite nations)

He says this man dwells in the clefts of the rock. I interpreted this to mean it is a highly protected nation. His habitation is high meaning he has great power in the earth and has much pride as a result saying no one can bring us down.

He then says he exalts his self as the eagle. That is THE AMERICAN LOGO. The Bald Eagle.

He then says he set his Nest among the Stars. Was it not America that established NASA space system and literally lives in outer space? With satalites and ect?

This is mind blowing. God says he will bring them down though. I mean at the end of the day no kingdom but Gods shall reign forever. Do we really think america wont fall? Do we really think christ will co rule the new kingdom on earth with the american government?

When you examin the wicked history of the nation? Its hard not to believe and see why God would have a judgment eye set on it. With history of stealing and slavery and alot of evil over centuries. All the clues point to america. He says if robbers steal wouldnt they leave at least some grapes ? Meaning they take what they need and get out. But american history reveals they take and take and take and do not stop. They take from other nations around the world and oppress them to their ways. And say you cant trade with us unless were in agreement which usually always benefits america more.

I dont know who else this could be. I believe God doesnt deal with coincidences neither. If it sounds like something it more likely is. Gods not the author of confusion. So what do you guys think about the book of Obadiah?

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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

woodtick wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:58 am FIVE ARE FALLEN is a mistake. ARE is present, fallen is past! The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. ...There are seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation.
I do not speak or read Greek but from your explanation I hazard a guess neither do you. We both then do well have to rely on the consensus amongst Greek scholars who consistently translate "the five" of Revelation 17:10 into the English "have fallen" (present prefect) or "are fallen" (passive). If experts have thus translate I think it's reasonable to conclude the verb (pipto: to fall) is in aorist or perfect tense.

If, despite your explanation of Greek tense translation which ingeniously makes zero reference to greek conjugation you do know enough greek to construct an argument WHY the above is inaccurate, or if you can refer to the tense of the verb in question and make a case why "five fall" (English present indicating future action) would in your opinion be more accurate, I'm always ready to learn a little biblical greek.

In the meantime I see no reason to question the accuracy of the translations presently available. (Your link to an interlinear did not work for me and would be of little use in your argument anyway unless you explain the GREEK tenses employed to support your case )

Various translations
https://biblehub.com/revelation/17-10.htm





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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #32

Post by woodtick »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #30]
1. Most bibles translate Rev 17:3 as "wilderness" ie a deserted solitary (but not necessarily sandy hot or dry region)
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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

woodtick wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:43 pmHowever, a deserted solitary area in that region would be a desert and it is translated that way 13 times in the NT.




While this may be true it is not particularly significant.


The "new testament" narrative is based primarily in Palestine, to the south of which is the Judean desert. While this region was dry and sandy, concluding 13 references mean Johns vision on the Greek Island must also be refering to a dry sandy or rocky region demands a leap in logic that is unjustifiable given the context of Revelation.
1. It was a vision: John was not in Judea or Sameria nor did he give any indication the vision should be associated with these regions. He was in fact kn Patmos (an Island surround by water) and many of his visions refer to the sea and water. His unique circumstances and themes indicate we should not impose constraints on the visions based strictly on numerical frequency.
  • The leap in logic that a vision on the Isle of Patmos applies to the literal the desert regions of Saudi Arabia because the gospel narratives refer to the Judean desert is tenuous at best. To conclude that if the Judean desert is dry and tthe Arabian desert is dry that a Babylonia desert must be dry (when literal Babylon, clearly an antitpye was not dry) is convoluted. This is like saying apples are green, my car is green ... so my car must be an apple. In short it is a conclusion which demands we ignore all other relevant factors to come to a desired conclusion.
2. As previously noted the vision of Revelation 17 is repeatedly associated with water. Babylon (who is associated with water) is said to be sitting on the beast. John's introduction indicates he is going to the desert /wilderness to witness the woman's (not the beasts) judgement so it is the woman not the beast that is primarily associated with the region (see Rev 17:1).

3. The origins of the beast is not the desert. Revelation 13 describes the origins of the scarlet/wild beast. There is no mention of desert (whether watery or arid). The fact is the origins of the Scarlet beast are mentioned in association with people rather than isolation, no desert required.
CONCLUSION: The beast originates as a copy of "the sea beast" of Revelation 13. It is associated not with isolation but with people and power. It evidently finds itself associated with Babylon who is associated with water rather than dry arid regions. There is ample reason then to disregard any theory that the wild beast of Revelation 17 represents the people or the religions originating in the arid regions of Arabia.
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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #35

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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Fair enough. I'll just go ahead and address some of the questions you asked me.
woodtick wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:51 pmHow can they be past ANCIENT kingdoms starting with Egypt when... they, "have received no kingdom as yet,"
The SEA beast itself represent governmental/political powers. Its HEADS represent various powers that come into existence in successive eras ending with the last head which rises to prominence during the "end times".

The scarlet/wild beast of Revelation 17 (being an image or a replica of the sea beast) naturally has the same number of heads but this beast represents The United nations. See my earlier post for details viewtopic.php?p=1018325#p1018325

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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

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Re: Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

woodtick wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:32 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #36]
What doesn't make sense to me is that the heads are between 4,000 and 2,000 years old, but the horns on the heads contemporary.
SYMBOLISM

Revelation is highly symbolic. A SYMBOL is basically taking one thing to represent or stand for something else*. So for example a set of scales representing (not a set of scales but ...) say...justice. A bald eagle representing, not a bald eagle, but America or a statue of a woman holding a tablet and a torch.... liberty.
  • * many with the book of Revelation fail to grasp this basic notion of symbolism so, for example instead of looking for something else they look for the same thing. Thus if they read of "seven mountains" they think it symbolizes not something else but seven mountains (Or a dry desert must represent a dry desert).
COMBINING SYMBOLS

Sometimes symbols are combined, so that the main idea is associated with various elements. Let us illustrate this with the famous "Statue of Liberty"

Image

We notice that although commemorating the American revolution in the 18th century, the statue incorporates symbols of concepts and features that predate that event. Indeed in this SYBOLISM knows no limits its. The NASA space program could be symbolized by great scientific inventions of the past or by individual scientists long dead.

Anyone that asks ..."How can clay model shuttle with 4 wings symbolize a 2022 space project if each wing represents Aristotle, Newton, Einstein and Hawking respectively? None of whom are alive today!!!" doesn't know the first thing about SYMBOLISM.
woodtick wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:51 pmAND HOW CAN THEY, "shall make war with the Lamb," ...IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!


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