What defines a sin?

[Miles]

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Sin is commonly considered to be a transgression against divine law, but what about those activities god abhors but does not actually label "sin"? Specifically, I'm thinking about men having sex with other men, as in:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

(Although the vast majority of bibles, 90%, don't call this, and the examples that follow, a "sin," a few modern Bibles, those published in the last 17 years, have decided it is.)



AND cursing ones father or mother

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.



AND refusing to obey god

Leviticus 26: 14-17
14 “But if you don’t obey me and all my commands, bad things will happen to you. 15 If you refuse to obey my laws and commands, you have broken my agreement. 16 If you do that, I will cause terrible things to happen to you. I will cause you to have disease and fever. They will destroy your eyes and take away your life. You will not have success when you plant your seed. And your enemies will eat your crops. 17 I will be against you, so your enemies will defeat you. These enemies will hate you and rule over you. You will run away even when no one is chasing you.



AND making a mistake

Leviticus 10:1-2
10 Then Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu made a mistake. They took their incense dishes and put some fire and incense in them. But they did not use the fire that was on the altar—they took fire from some other place and brought it to the Lord. This was not what he had commanded. 2 So fire came from the Lord and destroyed Nadab and Abihu, and they died there in front of the Lord.



AND going into a forbidden room

Leviticus 16: 1-2
Two of Aaron’s sons died while offering incense to the Lord. After that time, the Lord spoke to Moses. 2 The Lord said, “Talk to your brother Aaron. Tell him that he cannot go behind the curtain into the Most Holy Place anytime he wants to. The mercy-cover is in the room behind that curtain on top of the Holy Box, and I appear in a cloud over that mercy-cover. If Aaron goes into that room, he will die!


So, are these sins or not?

[Miles]

Sin is anything that separates us from God.

In a lot of cases that would include reason. Many, many people have dumped god because they found him an unreasonable concept. So, obviously reasoning is a sin. That about it?


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[Aetixintro]

[Replying to Miles in post #11]

I think it's fair to say that all sins work for evil. And evil is what separates us from God.

So the downward spiral of evil is what must be avoided and to avoid it is to avoid being sinful.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #11]

I think it's fair to say that all sins work for evil.

Curious; what does "work for evil" mean? In what way does sin work for evil?

And evil is what separates us from God.

And isn't it interesting that god would create something that separates us from him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's as if he doesn't want us.


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[PinSeeker]

Sin is anything that separates us from God.

In a lot of cases that would include reason. Many, many people have dumped god because they found him an unreasonable concept. So, obviously reasoning is a sin.

Well, the reason of God is very often much different than the “reason” of man. Reason, in and of itself, is certainly not sin, so no, what you assert is certainly not “about it.” Exchanging the truth — and reason — of God for a lie and denying that truth and reason (in unrighteousness) is most assuredly a sin, and really the Sin (capital ‘S’) embedded in all sins in one way or another. This is exactly Paul’s point in Romans 1.

Grace and peace to all.

[Miles]

Sin is anything that separates us from God.

In a lot of cases that would include reason. Many, many people have dumped god because they found him an unreasonable concept. So, obviously reasoning is a sin.

Well, the reason of God is very often much different than the “reason” of man.

I assume you mean the "reasoning" of god and the "reasoning" of man. If so, how do you know it's different, and in what way?

Reason, in and of itself, is certainly not sin, so no, what you assert is certainly not “about it.”

Logically it is: (Barbara)

Anything that separates us from god is a sin (per Overcomer)

Reason is a thing that separates us from god
___________________________
∴ Reason is a sin

Now, if you still dispute the conclusion here take it up with Overcomer. It's his premise.

Exchanging the truth — and reason — of God for a lie and denying that truth and reason (in unrighteousness) is most assuredly a sin, and really the Sin (capital ‘S’) embedded in all sins in one way or another. This is exactly Paul’s point in Romans 1.

Assuming you're talking about the issue here, just what lie is that? (Actually, I don't think I understand a thing you've said here. Perhaps you could rephrase.

.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to Miles in post #11]

I think it's fair to say that all sins work for evil.

Curious; what does "work for evil" mean? In what way does sin work for evil?

And evil is what separates us from God.

And isn't it interesting that god would create something that separates us from him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's as if he doesn't want us.

God is not the author of sin; James is very clear about that (1:13-15). Man is the author of sin, just as Adam was in Eden. But God does often use (in a sinless way, of course) the sinfulness of man to accomplish His good purposes.

Regarding Isaiah 45:7, as I said in another thread, if the word ‘evil’ is read correctly as a synonym — and it certainly can be; to deny this possibility is quite silly — for ‘disaster.’ ‘doom,’ ‘woe,’ ‘sorrow,’ ‘trouble,’ ‘calamity,’ ‘trouble(s),’ ‘bad,’ ‘discord,’ ‘hard times,’ ‘bad times,’ and "adversity,’ then Isaiah’s words there can be read in the correct light. Everything God does is good, and according to His perfect plan, and for His glory... and for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpiose (Romans 8:28)... whether men, in their “reasoning,” think so or not.

Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

Sin is anything that separates us from God.

In a lot of cases that would include reason. Many, many people have dumped god because they found him an unreasonable concept. So, obviously reasoning is a sin.

Well, the reason of God is very often much different than the “reason” of man.

I assume you mean the "reasoning" of god and the "reasoning" of man. If so, how do you know it's different, and in what way?

In many ways it’s not really possible in our finite state to know. Sometimes — often — we just have ra accept that God’s ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts (Isaiah 55), His knowledge is so high that we cannot attain to it (Psalm 139), and we can’t know the mind of the Lord or be His counselor (Romans 11).

Reason, in and of itself, is certainly not sin, so no, what you assert is certainly not “about it.”

Logically it is: (Barbara)

Anything that separates us from god is a sin (per Overcomer)

Reason is a thing that separates us from god
___________________________
∴ Reason is a sin

Naw. Using reason in a wrongful way — and I don’t mean merely being wrong about this or that — is the sin. Much the same as drinking is not a sin but abuse of alcohol is.

Now, if you still dispute the conclusion here take it up with Overcomer. It's his premise.

Nope. Overcomer is right.

Exchanging the truth — and reason — of God for a lie and denying that truth and reason (in unrighteousness) is most assuredly a sin, and really the Sin (capital ‘S’) embedded in all sins in one way or another. This is exactly Paul’s point in Romans 1.

Assuming you're talking about the issue here, just what is that? (Actually, I don't think I understand a thing you've said here.

If reason is really reason, mustn’t it necessarily be truthful? I think you can understand with a little more effort, maybe It’s not difficult. Maybe you just don’t want to...?

Perhaps you could rephrase.

I think what I said is very clear. Perhaps what I have said in this and the previous post make it clearer.

Grace and peace to you.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #11]

I think it's fair to say that all sins work for evil.

Curious; what does "work for evil" mean? In what way does sin work for evil?

And evil is what separates us from God.

And isn't it interesting that god would create something that separates us from him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's as if he doesn't want us.

God is not the author of sin; James is very clear about that (1:13-15). Man is the author of sin, just as Adam was in Eden. But God does often use (in a sinless way, of course) the sinfulness of man to accomplish His good purposes.

Of course, I never said god was the author of sin, just the author of evil because . . .well, because the Bible says he says he is:

KJV
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

GNV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

JUB
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

DARBY
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

AKJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DRA
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

ETC.

ETC.

ETC.

Regarding Isaiah 45:7, as I said in another thread, if the word ‘evil’ is read correctly as a synonym — and it certainly can be; to deny this possibility is quite silly — for ‘disaster.’ ‘doom,’ ‘woe,’ ‘sorrow,’ ‘trouble,’ ‘calamity,’ ‘trouble(s),’ ‘bad,’ ‘discord,’ ‘hard times,’ ‘bad times,’ and "adversity,’ then Isaiah’s words there can be read in the correct light. Everything God does is good, and according to His perfect plan, and for His glory... and for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpiose (Romans 8:28)... whether men, in their “reasoning,” think so or not.

And as I told you before: "evil" and "sorrow" are NOT synonyms, nor are "hard times" and "doom." Obviously you have absolutely no idea what a synonym is and don't care to learn, or are afraid to.

Everything God does is good,

Like condoning slavery.
Or Killing innocent women and children.
Or advising the parents of a stubborn and rebellious son to have the town's people stone him to death.
Or having men killed because they engage in homosexual sex
Or telling people to kill witches.
Or ordering people to kill anyone who has sex with an animal.
And, of course, creating evil is always a good thing to do

And, because god finds these things to be good, we do them today . . . . . . . . . . oops, hold on . . . . . . . . .NO! We don't do these "good" things today because we don't find them to be good at all. So . . . . . . . . everything god does is NOT good.

.

[Miles]

Sin is anything that separates us from God.

In a lot of cases that would include reason. Many, many people have dumped god because they found him an unreasonable concept. So, obviously reasoning is a sin.

Well, the reason of God is very often much different than the “reason” of man.

I assume you mean the "reasoning" of god and the "reasoning" of man. If so, how do you know it's different, and in what way?

In many ways it’s not really possible in our finite state to know. Sometimes — often — we just have ra accept that God’s ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts (Isaiah 55), His knowledge is so high that we cannot attain to it (Psalm 139), and we can’t know the mind of the Lord or be His counselor (Romans 11).

Yet you just got done saying you DID know: "the reason of God is very often much different than the “reason” of man." And Psalm 139 doesn't say a thing about god's reasoning. PLEASE keep in mind that reasoning and knowledge are not the same thing.

Reason, in and of itself, is certainly not sin, so no, what you assert is certainly not “about it.”

Logically it is: (Barbara)

Anything that separates us from god is a sin (per Overcomer)

Reason is a thing that separates us from god
___________________________
∴ Reason is a sin

Naw. Using reason in a wrongful way — is the sin.

Evidently using reason (logic here) is wrongful when it proves you wrong. If not, please explain the wrongful way in which it's used here.

Now, if you still dispute the conclusion here take it up with Overcomer. It's his premise.

Nope. Overcomer is right.

Then the conclusion in the syllogism, "Reason is a sin," is sound. (If both premises are true and the the form is valid the conclusion is sound)

Exchanging the truth — and reason — of God for a lie and denying that truth and reason (in unrighteousness) is most assuredly a sin, and really the Sin (capital ‘S’) embedded in all sins in one way or another. This is exactly Paul’s point in Romans 1.

Assuming you're talking about the issue here, just what is that? (Actually, I don't think I understand a thing you've said here.

If reason is really reason, mustn’t it necessarily be truthful?

Yeah, I figured you'd be unable to answer my question, but just plow ahead. In any case, Ever hear of faulting reasoning? Of course you have. You know, when someone says something stupid like: "We know the Bible is true because there was a miracle witnessed by 500 people. And, we know that there was a miracle witnessed by 500 people because the Bible says so." OR:

If the Bible were not true, logic would not be meaningful.
Logic is meaningful.
Therefore, the Bible is true.

I think you can understand with a little more effort, maybe It’s not difficult. Maybe you just don’t want to...?

And again, something else you've said but can't explain.

Perhaps you could rephrase.

I think what I said is very clear. Perhaps what I have said in this and the previous post make it clearer.

Not a bit. And in as much as you were unaware that reason can be faulty I don't hold much hope that what you've said would make it any clearer.


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[2timothy316]

You are right. God wouldn't condemn someone who had homosexual tendencies and yet never carried through on those feelings. It is true....the ACT of homosexuality is what God finds repulsive. There are several scriptures that condemn the homosexual act, besides the one you refer to in Leviticus.

"Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them...God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature, and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene..." (Romans 1:24,26,27)


"What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's Kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor men who lie with men, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's Kingdom." (I Corinthians 6:9,10)


There are more. I think these suffice to show God's position on the homosexual act.

Although god really hates homosexual sex, obviously putting it at the far end of his scale of things he doesn't care for, lacking any evidence from you that he considers it to be an actual sin, I'm concluding that you agree he doesn't consider it such. In god's eyes it's just something that's really, really, R E A L L Y bad, but doesn't rise to the level of sin.

..

Wait, lets make this clear, so because the Bible doesn't say word for word 'homosexuality is a sin' you don't think that it's a sin? Is this your reasoning why you don't believe Roman 1:24, 26, 27 and 1 Cor 6:9, 10 are calling homosexuality is a sin? So a person that has sex with a person of the same sex isn't getting into God's Kingdom, not because of sin, but because God just doesn't like homosexuality....right? If that is your reasoning, then "fornicators, idolators, adulterers, greedy persons, drunkards, revilers, extortioners" are not sins?

If so then what do you make of Proverbs 6:16-19?

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

This says that God merely hates 'hands that shed innocent blood'. So murder is not a sin because this scripture only says God hates it but it doesn't say its a sin....explain this and why we can't conclude anything that God hates or is unclean to Him is a sin.