The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

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AgnosticBoy
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The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.

Do a few bad cops make all police bad?

Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?

koko

Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #31

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:36 am
I know plenty of people, of different races, that were poor and now have successful careers. Some decent careers only require a few years of education and then you can go back to school for more after you start working. Yep, a lot of people don't think about that.

Here's a general principle:
A person should not judge an entire system (college in this case) based on their own shortcomings.

I brought up what education did for Obama. It gave him more options to make a living other than being on the street. And don't get me wrong, you can be without education or even poor and still do good. I know a lot of immigrant families that fit that scenario.

To attribute failure in life to racism, in the 21st century, is just an excuse. Racism exists but it is NOT to the point of causing Blacks to be suppressed or kept from success.


~ were poor and now have successful careers ~

I know plenty as well. But I also know others who were financially ok but became poor.



~ A person should not judge an entire system (college in this case) based on their own shortcomings. ~

You obviously missed my reference to the $1.7 trillion debt college graduates have. That is a systemic FAIL. In fact, it is so bad that it has led to student suicides:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student- ... _b_1638972



~ Obama ~

I am glad that he succeeded. But for every Obama there are many more George Floyds. I live in the ghetto, you do not. You never see Floyds unless you watch TV. I see them every day as do many young children. When they see the likes of a Floyd they become discouraged and many drop out of school because they see how useless an education often is.


~ racism is an excuse ~

Racism is a fact of life. Even conservatives like Pat Buchanan and John McGlaughlin admitted it during discussions on their PBS show years ago.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #32

Post by Bust Nak »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:36 am To attribute failure in life to racism, in the 21st century, is just an excuse. Racism exists but it is NOT to the point of causing Blacks to be suppressed or kept from success.
Let say there are two guys working just as hard as each other, one succeed but the other fail due to their race. Granted the second guy could have put in twice as much effort and succeed too. Is attribute that failure to racism still "just an excuse" in your view?

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #33

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:15 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:36 am To attribute failure in life to racism, in the 21st century, is just an excuse. Racism exists but it is NOT to the point of causing Blacks to be suppressed or kept from success.
Let say there are two guys working just as hard as each other, one succeed but the other fail due to their race. Granted the second guy could have put in twice as much effort and succeed too. Is attribute that failure to racism still "just an excuse" in your view?
[emphasis added]

Your point begs the question. If someone fails due to their race, then racism is not an excuse. If they work just as hard as someone else, and they fail while the other succeeds, then I would not assume race from the start. Jumping straight to race can be an excuse in that case, and even if not it's still an unjustified conclusion until you can rule out other factors, like seniority, or even other forms of discrimination like favoritism (perhaps the manager is friends with the successful employee).

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #34

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #33]

It's been done already. According to Harvard Business School, Black job applicants are twice as likely to get a job interview simply by hiding their race on their resume.

koko

Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #35

Post by koko »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:27 pm [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #33]

It's been done already. According to Harvard Business School, Black job applicants are twice as likely to get a job interview simply by hiding their race on their resume.


That reminds me of something liberal Dave Pakman said years ago: when he sent out his resume he made the mistake of identifying himself as a Hispanic (he was born in Argentina). He did not get any replies to his mailings. Then he altered his resume and identified himself as a white Jew (his family originally came from Central Europe and they are Jewish). He then got 150 job offers. Here is his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/MidweekPolitics


If you have any doubts about what you just read, go ahead and ask him to confirm if this story is true.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #36

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #34]

Geez, I pointed out the same thing in post #24 and I didn't get any 'likes.' I bet it's because I have a white avatar :shock:

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #37

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:27 pm [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #33]

It's been done already. According to Harvard Business School, Black job applicants are twice as likely to get a job interview simply by hiding their race on their resume.
Your point is an exaggeration. First, it doesn't say that there were zero interviews given to Blacks. So there's still a chance that some of the miniorities who revealed their race got interviews. Under a racist system, no blacks would be interviewed.

Here's another problem. Why would you emphasize or bring up race on a resume? If I am a corporate executive, I might see that as a person trying to make race an issue. I don't want race to become an issue because I want to go by skill and performance. I'm more likely to recruit someone if they leave race out on their resume.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #38

Post by Bust Nak »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 am Your point is an exaggeration. First, it doesn't say that there were zero interviews given to Blacks. So there's still a chance that some of the miniorities who revealed their race got interviews.
Are these supposed to be justification for the accusation of exaggeration? I didn't claim nor imply there were no interviews or zero chance given to Blacks.

Black job applicants are twice as likely to get a job interview by hiding their race on their resume, that's no exaggeration.
Under a racist system, no blacks would be interviewed.
So what word would you use to describe a system that poses a significant disadvantage (as opposed to outright ban) to someone based on their race, if not "racist?"
Here's another problem. Why would you emphasize or bring up race on a resume?
Because it might an important part of a person's identity? And we are not just talking about actively bringing up race here, people are removing references that might give hint as to race such as prior job experiences. Sometimes it's not even possible with Black or Hispanic sounding names.
If I am a corporate executive, I might see that as a person trying to make race an issue. I don't want race to become an issue because I want to go by skill and performance. I'm more likely to recruit someone if they leave race out on their resume.
That sounds okay in theory, as long as you treat white people who have indicators of their race on their resume the same way. Do you think White job applicants would also be twice as likely to get a job interview by hiding their race?

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #39

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Bust Nak wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:34 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 am Under a racist system, no blacks would be interviewed.
So what word would you use to describe a system that poses a significant disadvantage (as opposed to outright ban) to someone based on their race, if not "racist?"
Here's the main point. You can't expect to get into company by emphasizing a hot button issue, ie race. In the same way, if I put I'm a Republican on my resume don't you think that's asking for trouble? As a corporate executive I'd see this as a liability.
This is how your study was set up and therefore it was doomed to show a bad outcome.

Where you saw race as an issue because you're looking for a race issue, I saw a lesson which is to stay away from hot button issues during an interview or on my resume.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:34 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 amHere's another problem. Why would you emphasize or bring up race on a resume?
Because it might an important part of a person's identity?
As a corporate exec. I don't care about race. If you allow people to emphasize race then why not also gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc?
Bust Nak wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:34 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 am If I am a corporate executive, I might see that as a person trying to make race an issue. I don't want race to become an issue because I want to go by skill and performance. I'm more likely to recruit someone if they leave race out on their resume.
That sounds okay in theory, as long as you treat white people who have indicators of their race on their resume the same way. Do you think White job applicants would also be twice as likely to get a job interview by hiding their race?
Your study shows even Blacks getting an increase in interviews when they don't emphasize race. So clearly that works. If you stop looking for racial issues then perhaps you'd actually learn a good lesson from the study.
Last edited by AgnosticBoy on Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #40

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:09 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:34 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 am Under a racist system, no blacks would be interviewed.
So what word would you use to describe a system that poses a significant disadvantage (as opposed to outright ban) to someone based on their race, if not "racist?"
Here's the main point. You can't expect to get into company by emphasizing a hot button issue, ie race. In the same way, if I put I'm a Republican on my resume don't you think that's asking for trouble? As a corporate executive I'd see this as a liability.
This is how your study was set up and therefore it was doomed to show a bad outcome.

Where you saw race as an issue because you're looking for a race issue, I saw a lesson which is to stay away from hot button issues during an interview or on my resume.
These studies aren't being done by amateurs in the way in which you apparently think you'd go about it: As Bust Nak pointed out (and you carefully snipped/ignored from your reply), names like Tyrone or Jamal, Jose or Carlos give pretty strong racial indications in themselves without making the resume 'weird' in any way. If the resumes submitted by "Tyrone" are consistently getting significantly fewer callbacks than the identical resumes submitted by "Angus" across a large enough number of jobs, the only possible explanation is that it's the racial implications of those names causing the difference. The results have been confirmed in study after study over the decades; the meta-analysis I cited in post #24 looked at 24 different studies conducted since 1989:
  • This study investigates change over time in the level of hiring discrimination in US labor markets. We perform a meta-analysis of every available field experiment of hiring discrimination against African Americans or Latinos (n=28). Together, these studies represent 55,842 applications submitted for 26,326 positions. We focus on trends since 1989 (n=24 studies), when field experiments became more common and improved methodologically. Since 1989, whites receive on average 36% more callbacks than African Americans, and 24% more callbacks than Latinos. We observe no change in the level of hiring discrimination against African Americans over the past 25 years, although we find modest evidence of a decline in discrimination against Latinos. Accounting for applicant education, applicant gender, study method, occupational groups, and local labor market conditions does little to alter this result. Contrary to claims of declining discrimination in American society, our estimates suggest that levels of discrimination remain largely unchanged, at least at the point of hire

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