God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[koko]

{my reply} That's the key = "if what Jesus said is true ..."



If what Jesus says or the entire Bible isn't true then there is nothing but death that awaits all mankind, for those currently healthy or sick. Is that what you believe?

I do not know for certain as to what will be our ultimate fate. But I do know this: that the biblical god claims to be a loving father who treats humanity exactly like a human father treats his children. Among the many verses which show this is Proverbs 3:11,12. Yes, fathers do discipline their children. But truly loving fathers do not choose favorites. He treats all of his children exactly the same. He does not give riches to one and leave the other starving or pining away in pain. Any father who did that would be thrown in jail. Yet, this god claims to be just like a human father. Clearly he is not at that level. Because of that I see no basis for worshipping him or even for the expectation of heavenly rewards.

[2timothy316]

{my reply} That's the key = "if what Jesus said is true ..."



If what Jesus says or the entire Bible isn't true then there is nothing but death that awaits all mankind, for those currently healthy or sick. Is that what you believe?

I do not know for certain as to what will be our ultimate fate. But I do know this: that the biblical god claims to be a loving father who treats humanity exactly like a human father treats his children. Among the many verses which show this is Proverbs 3:11,12. Yes, fathers do discipline their children. But truly loving fathers do not choose favorites. He treats all of his children exactly the same. He does not give riches to one and leave the other starving or pining away in pain. Any father who did that would be thrown in jail. Yet, this god claims to be just like a human father. Clearly he is not at that level. Because of that I see no basis for worshipping him or even for the expectation of heavenly rewards.

This is whole reason why we, as mankind, are in the state we are in. The question of worship. Who deserves it?
Adam and Eve thought they could serve themselves without the need for a ruling God.
Satan thinks he deserve to be worshiped. But should he? The Bible states that Satan is the ruler of this world and that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) While Satan has the power to heal mankind yet he does nothing. Did you know that God's king Jesus, doesn't rule the Earth right now and that he only rules Heaven for now?
Then we turn our attention to mankind. Have they been the salvation of man? Should we worship them? The governments or perhaps the commercial scientist, should we give them honor and glory?

How do we answer such questions as, who has the right to rule and who can deliver real help?

Another question is why do people have a hard time accepting what the future holds as something they are willing to worship God for?
Answer: The God inspired writer said this, "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

What is this future Good News? Who will give it to us? Who has the right to rule the Earth?

[koko]

the Bible states that Satan is the ruler of this world and that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

it also states that god is the creater of all evil in Isaiah 45:7



If this self proclaimed benevolent father ever imposed on you the same evils he imposed on me it is doubtful that you would worship him.

[2timothy316]

the Bible states that Satan is the ruler of this world and that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

it also states that god is the creater of all evil in Isaiah 45:7



If this self proclaimed benevolent father ever imposed on you the same evils he imposed on me it is doubtful that you would worship him.

Not all translations translate that scripture that way.
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm
"I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

Also, are you familiar with that scripture in context, do you know why God said these things? Did you know they are not directed at you? Isaiah 45, where you get that quote says this in verse one as to who this is directed to, "This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus." Are you aware who Cyrus was and what he did?

The Bible also says, “‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope." - Jeremiah 29:11. This was said to God's people as a whole. Those that reject Satan and man as their rulers.

However, I would like to know who your think is worthy of worship? I have your answer as to who think isn't.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #429]

Checkpoint wrote:

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

PinSeeker wrote:

This much I agree with wholeheartedly,

Checkpoint wrote:

So good to know that.

Pinseeker responded:

Well, again, I only agreed with the very beginning of your post, which was crystal clear.

But now you're deliberately and egregiously misrepresenting my position, trying to make it much different than what it was/is. Which makes your blessings to me ring hollow, to be perfectly honest. Wow. But... well... I can't say I didn't expect that, even from you.

Pinseeker, I unreservedly apologize to you for my post #427.

It was written due to what had been happening to me yesterday on this site, as a somewhat light-hearted fill-in only. Now I realise how easily it could be read as you have.

For today as I read your response, I saw my post through your eyes and was aghast and ashamed.

Please, my brother Pinseeker, forgive me.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #435]

Certainly, apology accepted.

Just to reiterate: The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal (spiritual) death... not physical non-existence. I disagree with you -- wholeheartedly -- that eternal punishment, the result of the second death, is synonymous with physical non-existence, and the reason is because God clearly and plainly says it's not.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[duplicated post]

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #435]

Certainly, apology accepted.

Thankyou. Much appreciated.

Just to reiterate: The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal (spiritual) death... not physical non-existence. I disagree with you -- wholeheartedly -- that eternal punishment, the result of the second death, is synonymous with physical non-existence, and the reason is because God clearly and plainly says it's not.

OK, I'll ask the obvious question.

Where and how does God say it's not "non-existence", clearly and plainly?

In fact, I would say, "that eternal punishment" IS "the second death", which includes "the result of the second death"(and vice-versa).

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks. Likewise to you.

[koko]

the Bible states that Satan is the ruler of this world and that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

it also states that god is the creater of all evil in Isaiah 45:7



If this self proclaimed benevolent father ever imposed on you the same evils he imposed on me it is doubtful that you would worship him.

Not all translations translate that scripture that way.
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm
"I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

Also, are you familiar with that scripture in context, do you know why God said these things? Did you know they are not directed at you? Isaiah 45, where you get that quote says this in verse one as to who this is directed to, "This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus." Are you aware who Cyrus was and what he did?

The Bible also says, “‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope." - Jeremiah 29:11. This was said to God's people as a whole. Those that reject Satan and man as their rulers.

However, I would like to know who your think is worthy of worship? I have your answer as to who think isn't.

Calamity is evil. It certainly isn't pleasant.

Who is worthy of worship? Not sure that anyone or anything is. At least not sure anymore. As I have mentioned before, I used to believe the bible. But none of it ever panned out. It says "prove me now herewith" meaning try it, you'll like it. I tried it but it failed.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #426]

Checkpoint wrote:

↑The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

This much I agree with wholeheartedly, with the exception of the very last part, which is not incorrect but incomplete... or not parallel.

The opposite of one thing that is spiritual (I agree, life) cannot be another thing that is physical. It may be inadvertent, but you're comparing apples and oranges, as it were.

The true opposite "eternal (spiritual) life is eternal (spiritual) death. This permanent condition of death, resulting from the second death, is not physical in nature but spiritual.

As you know, God from the beginning made man and gave him two choices, and therefore planned for two destinies. These are eternal life, a second life, a spiritual one, being with Him, or eternal death (the second death) that is both spiritual and physical, being without Him.

Whether or not they are opposites or alternatives, that is my view.

Grace and peace to you.