God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Calamity is evil.

Not in and of itself, no, it's not, because calamity is just a circumstance. But a calamity can be an evil to us, for sure, but it can be something less than that. There's a world of difference between:

(a) an "evil" coming upon someone and
(b) someone actually doing something evil to another.

God may cause (a) above, but He Himself is not evil in any way or the author of it and thus is never guilty of (b) above, whether one thinks so or not. People are guilty of (b) quite often, but not God. If one thinks God is ever guilty of (b), then what he is really saying is that he knows better what is good than God does, which is... well, it's silly, to be quite honest. Romans 8:28 says that God works all things -- all things, so that includes things that we might consider inconvenient or bad, and even an "evil" and/or a "calamity" -- together for our good. And this is the correct sense in which Isaiah 45:7 should be read.

It certainly isn't pleasant.

This I think we all agree with. And if it is terribly unpleasant and not merely an inconvenience in one's life, then he or she may regard it as an "evil." But it is still just a circumstance, synonymous in this sense with a calamity, as should be clear above.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

OK, I'll ask the obvious question. Where and how does God say it's not "non-existence", clearly and plainly?

As I said, Matthew 25:

• "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'... And these will go away into eternal punishment." (vv.41-46).

If one departs and subsequently goes away into some other place to receive something, he or she does not cease to exist. This is a clear and plain reading of the text. That should be more than enough, but if not, we can clearly see it in other passages from God's Word, like...

• the Lord Jesus's words in Mark 9:47-48 -- "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ "

NOTE: With "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched," Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66:24, and is a terrifying picture of God's final and unending judgment, which will be executed by Jesus.

• Jesus's parable in Luke 16; where the rich man is clearly in the realm of the dead (Hades), conscious (because he is able to converse) and in torment (terribly troubled and spiritually anguished)

and

• the latter half of Revelation 20 ("...the devil was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... (a)nd I saw the dead, great and small... (a)nd the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")

...are absolutely consistent with this. God is His own arbiter.

In fact, I would say, "that eternal punishment" IS "the second death", which includes "the result of the second death" (and vice-versa).

Well, right. I have said this many times. But I think you're continuing to see something woodenly literal, so to speak -- merely temporal and physical -- and applying it to the spiritual and eternal, which just cannot be done with any validity. God is very clear about this, too, in His word, one being where Jesus tells Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world."

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

This much I agree with wholeheartedly, with the exception of the very last part, which is not incorrect but incomplete... or not parallel. The opposite of one thing that is spiritual (I agree, life) cannot be another thing that is physical. It may be inadvertent, but you're comparing apples and oranges, as it were. The true opposite "eternal (spiritual) life is eternal (spiritual) death. This permanent condition of death, resulting from the second death, is not physical in nature but spiritual.

As you know, God from the beginning made man and gave him two choices, and therefore planned for two destinies. These are eternal life, a second life, a spiritual one, being with Him, or eternal death (the second death) that is both spiritual and physical, being without Him.

Well, I know that's your opinion, sure. But it's wrong.

The second death is not physical but spiritual only. What I said above should be more than sufficient to refute that, and it is.

And really, God didn't give man a "choice," did He? He said, in so many words, "This is what you are to do." And, too, "This is what you must not do." God did not give Adam the choice to disobey, but when Adam did disobey, He was forced -- by Himself, of course -- to deal with it. And He did so by saying, "Since you have done this, this is how it will be from now on." And God ultimately promised, in Genesis 3:15, that He would set things right Himself by His own work in the Person of Jesus. Right? So Adam knew what to do and what not to do, but transgressed that command. There was really no "choice" given.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

OK, I'll ask the obvious question. Where and how does God say it's not "non-existence", clearly and plainly?

As I said, Matthew 25:

• "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'... And these will go away into eternal punishment." (vv.41-46).

If one departs and subsequently goes away into some other place to receive something, he or she does not cease to exist. This is a clear and plain reading of the text.

Not in the least.

The something they will receive is eternal punishment, eternal fire, which is eternal death, the absence of life and therefore of existence. This time, not temporarily, but forever.

Hebrews 10:

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

That should be more than enough, but if not, we can clearly see it in other passages from God's Word, like...

• the Lord Jesus's words in Mark 9:47-48 -- "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ "

NOTE: With "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched," Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66:24, and is a terrifying picture of God's final and unending judgment, which will be executed by Jesus.

Hmm. A worm that belongs in a corpse and continues to eat it, plus a fire that is not quenched.

This in no way conveyseternal existence of anyone.

Isaiah 66:

24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind. NIV

• Jesus's parable in Luke 16; where the rich man is clearly in the realm of the dead (Hades), conscious (because he is able to converse) and in torment (terribly troubled and spiritually anguished)

Conscious because he has been awakened("lifting up his eyes") and is at the Judgment.

and

• the latter half of Revelation 20 ("...the devil was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... (a)nd I saw the dead, great and small... (a)nd the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")

...are absolutely consistent with this. God is His own arbiter.

So death and Hades remain existent,then? I think not.

Grace and peace to you.

To you also, Pinseeker.

[koko]

Calamity is evil.

Not in and of itself, no, it's not, because calamity is just a circumstance. But a calamity can be an evil to us, for sure, but it can be something less than that. There's a world of difference between:

(a) an "evil" coming upon someone and
(b) someone actually doing something evil to another.

God may cause (a) above, but He Himself is not evil in any way or the author of it and thus is never guilty of (b) above, whether one thinks so or not. People are guilty of (b) quite often, but not God. If one thinks God is ever guilty of (b), then what he is really saying is that he knows better what is good than God does, which is... well, it's silly, to be quite honest. Romans 8:28 says that God works all things -- all things, so that includes things that we might consider inconvenient or bad, and even an "evil" and/or a "calamity" -- together for our good. And this is the correct sense in which Isaiah 45:7 should be read.

It certainly isn't pleasant.

This I think we all agree with. And if it is terribly unpleasant and not merely an inconvenience in one's life, then he or she may regard it as an "evil." But it is still just a circumstance, synonymous in this sense with a calamity, as should be clear above.

Grace and peace to you.

The Bible teaches 'that which is of flesh is flesh, that which is of spirit is spirit'. This means that something can only come from its source. Thus is logically follows that evil can only come from evil. That same Bible tells us that it is your god who creates all evil. Therefore, evil simply cannot come from any other source.

As for the notion that it is for our good, yes that is stated in the Bible. But it does not have any basis in logic or common sense. 40+ million abortion victims did not benefit in any way from their experience. Nor did 6 million dead Jews or the many millions of Native Americans exterminated in the American holocaust. Any notions to the contrary is just Christian casuistry, not logic or common sense.

Peace ....

[PinSeeker]

That same Bible tells us that it is your god who creates all evil. Therefore, evil simply cannot come from any other source.

No, it doesn't. Quite the opposite. But, one hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest; you're welcome to your opinion.

Any notions to the contrary is just Christian casuistry, not logic or common sense.

Well, Christian logic -- which comes from God -- is not worldly "logic," so in a sense -- in a certain sense -- I agree with you. God, in His infinite wisdom, chose the "foolish" to shame the "wise." For sure.

Grace and peace to you.

[koko]

That same Bible tells us that it is your god who creates all evil. Therefore, evil simply cannot come from any other source.

No, it doesn't. Quite the opposite. But, one hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest; you're welcome to your opinion.

Any notions to the contrary is just Christian casuistry, not logic or common sense.

Well, Christian logic -- which comes from God -- is not worldly "logic," so in a sense -- in a certain sense -- I agree with you. God, in His infinite wisdom, chose the "foolish" to shame the "wise." For sure.

Grace and peace to you.

Not to make light of the situation but imagine telling a Jew that's about to be thrown into an incinerator that all the suffering he will endure will ultimately build character and make him into a better person. Do the same to the fetus facing an abortion or anyone else facing extermination. Just imagine how far that "logic" is going to get you or them.

Peace ...

[PinSeeker]

The something they will receive is eternal punishment, eternal fire, which is eternal death, the absence of life and therefore of existence. This time, not temporarily, but forever.

Well, I agree with the forever thing... But you, along with several other posters here, misunderstand -- or possibly understand but refuse to accept -- what fire clearly symbolizes in the Bible, and what death in general and eternal death specifically clearly are according to God.

Like koko, to you I would say again that I clearly understand your opinion and certainly am okay with you continuing to hold to it (as if it matters if I am "okay" with it or not).

Hebrews 10:27 -- ...but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Checkpoint, I am consumed by my love (which is a disposition, much as a fearful expectation is) for my wife. Does this mean I don't exist? No, of course not.

And this:

• the Lord Jesus's words in Mark 9:47-48 -- "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ "

NOTE: With "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched," Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66:24, and is a terrifying picture of God's final and unending judgment, which will be executed by Jesus.

Hmm. A worm that belongs in a corpse and continues to eat it, plus a fire that is not quenched. This in no way conveys eternal existence of anyone.

LOL! If they are merely corpses and not people, then they are not really "theys" anymore, Checkpoint, but "its."

The worm is symbolic of their anguish at having chosen wrongly -- and their not having any opportunity to take back that wrong choice and make it again rightly. And this worm does not die. incapability of revoking that wrong choice and choosing rightly. This is true in Isaiah 66 and thus Mark 9. Isaiah's prophecy, Checkpoint, is mostly poetry and is thus filled with metaphors and imagery. Jesus, as documented by Mark in chapter 9 of his gospel, employs that imagery in his narrative.

Jesus's parable in Luke 16; where the rich man is clearly in the realm of the dead (Hades), conscious (because he is able to converse) and in torment (terribly troubled and spiritually anguished)

Conscious because he has been awakened("lifting up his eyes") and is at the Judgment.

LOL! No, but lifting up his eyes because he is conscious. This is one of Jesus's parables, right? And He uses parables -- simple stories, which do not employ metaphors -- to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. David says he lifts up his eyes to the hills (Psalm 121). Was David saying he was dead and needed to be brought back to life or awakened from a sleep? No, of course not.

So death and Hades remain existent,then? I think not.

Well not in the new heaven and new earth, no. But the realm of the dead certainly will, and for its inhabitants there will be a "life" to be lived there, but one devoid of God's grace -- and the absence of the One Who is life, Jesus Christ; this is death. Only the effects of the final Judgment will remain.

But like I said to koko, you are more than welcome to your opinion. As I am to mine, I guess. We should be able to leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

And really, God didn't give man a "choice," did He? He said, in so many words, "This is what you are to do." And, too, "This is what you must not do."

God told us what to do, and what not to do via commandments.

The choice is that we can obey or disobey His commandments.

It's really simple.

The wages of disobeying God's commandments is death.

The reward for obeying all of God's commandments is everlasting life.

However, no human ever gained that reward until Jesus did so.

================= Shift to plan "B" =========================

Under the New Testament Covenant, God allows the man Jesus to offer His inheritance of everlasting life which He gained by living a sinless human life, to those who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins. Here is how the Bible simply puts it:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So everlasting life becomes the gift of God through Jesus Christ.

Believers gain everlasting life.

Nonbelievers perish.

Once again, it's each man's simple choice to believe or not believe.

====================================================

But if all mankind is born with an everlasting existence as you believe, the Bible's simple logic falls apart -- as you have all mankind (believers and nonbelievers) having everlasting life as a right of being born.

You are granting the reward of the saved to both believers and nonbelievers.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #442]

Pinseeker wrote:

The true opposite "eternal (spiritual) life is eternal (spiritual) death. This permanent condition of death, resulting from the second death, is not physical in nature but spiritual.

Checkpoint wrote:

As you know, God from the beginning made man and gave him two choices, and therefore planned for two destinies. These are eternal life, a second life, a spiritual one, being with Him, or eternal death (the second death) that is both spiritual and physical, being without Him.

Pinseeker replied:

Well, I know that's your opinion, sure. But it's wrong.

The second death is not physical but spiritual only. What I said above should be more than sufficient to refute that, and it is.

It should be enough to refute my opinion, , in your opinion, yes.

But what you said is very far from being enough, in my opinion.

However, we do agree there are two deaths. One is spiritual, and the other is physical. Both are first spoken of in Genesis 2 and 3. As it is written:

2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

3:17 To Adam He said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

5:5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died

Adam died 930 years after he ate what was forbidden, yet God had specified he would die on the very day he disobeyed Him.

Is this, then, an obvious contradiction? Did God get it all wrong? No, and no.

God was talking about two deaths, saying he would die spiritually the very day he ate from the forbidden tree(2:17), and of its eventual result, he would die physically(3:19).

[Of course, you know this well, and so much more, but some other readers may not]

Humanity has thus inherited, from Adam, both deaths. We are born spiritually dead yet physically alive, and will die that death later.

But we were created with the potentiality and the opportunity, to turn both of these around.

As Jesus put it,

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh(physical), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit(spiritual).

Both either live or they die; are alive or dead.

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

Blessings, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

You're still -- by inference here -- comparing apples to oranges. I don't know if that's accidental or intentional (maybe both), but it is what it is. I have said many times -- and you have agreed -- that if one is spiritually dead, that does not then mean that they are physically non-existent or physically dead. One can obviously be very much physically alive but at the same time spiritually dead. Like you just said, that was the state Adam and Eve acquired for themselves in "that very day" that they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Thus, that is the natural state of all of us at least initially; some -- but not all -- at some point in their physical lives are made spiritually alive -- born again by the Holy Spirit into Christ.

So, two things:

1. To answer your question -- as if it needed answering -- when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. That's really kind of senseless question (like, "Is red red?" or "Is an automobile an automobile?" or "Is a football a football?" -- "Uhhhh... yeah..." ), which leads me to:

2. The correct question is, "When one is spiritually dead, does it necessarily then follow that he or she has no physical existence? I think you're agreeing the answer is no. Thus, my point: That answer will be very much the same in eternity to come.

I'll agree with you this far (as if I never have...): When one is dies physically, that person does not exist in the physical world. And so, likewise, the one who is spiritually dead and as a result of the Judgment departs, as Jesus says multiple times, into his/her eternal punishment (which is the second death)... the "lake of fire," which is symbolic of God's final and permanent judgment... he or she will not exist in the very real and physical new heaven and new earth, when it "comes down out of heaven," as John puts it in Revelation. But that person will most certainly exist -- physically and consciously -- elsewhere, as depicted in Luke 16. It will suck, for sure, and be the bane of their existence; this is their "worm" that "will not die." Whether or not this seems just or loving to any of us mere human beings is irrelevant. If it does seem unjust or unloving to any of us, then what we are saying then is, we know better than God what is just and loving... which is quite ridicuous.

Grace and peace to you.