Can Christians offer a money-back guarantee?

[unknown soldier]

We've all heard the sales pitch in which a business offers a money-back guarantee to all unsatisfied buyers. The business will tell consumers that they're so confident that purchasers will be pleased with the product, that the business can offer that kind of guarantee. The logic is that if a seller is sure that the seller's product is worth the purchase price, then the buyers will be pleased with that product and will not ask for their money back.

I agree with that logic. If people are confident that what they have to offer will please those who accept the offer, then there is no need to fear that anything exchanged for the offer will be demanded back. They can readily guarantee satisfaction accepting the risk of loss.

Why, then, do Christians not offer a money-back guarantee to any disgruntled person who tithed and donated money to a Christian group or church? It seems reasonable to me that if Christians truly believe that their religion is actually founded on a perfect God, then they would be completely confident that all comers would be pleased.

Maybe the clergy wants to cover itself just in case.

[Overcomer]

I don't think the problem is what the Bible says about money. I think the problem is the way that some people misinterpret what the Bible says about money. I'm thinking specifically of the Prosperity Gospel, a peculiarly American phenomenon that, sadly, is creeping across the border into Canada where I live. That particular slant on the Bible is indeed all about planting seed money and reaping monetary rewards -- and look at the wealthy preachers who are purporting it!

As a Christian, I really hate to see the way some of these people rip off their followers -- like Creflo Dollar wanting his congregation to buy a new plane for him because his old one needed replacing. Seriously? Who in their right mind would follow someone like that? I wonder if it's the same kind of person who buys lottery tickets. Telling people that, if they do what the preachers teach, they will get rich is in the same category with lotteries as far as I'm concerned.

So if people are indeed sold that ungodly theology and come to realize it's nonsense after being part of such a church with a leader teaching it, then, yes, I don't blame them for being angry. They were told a lie. They SHOULD be angry. I certainly would be. And yes, they may take Bible verses and use them to make that sales pitch to people, but then, as I said, they are misinterpreting Scripture.

Let's take the ones that koko supplied for us earlier in this thread:

"Ask and ye shall receive" (Mark 10:30) This verse has NOTHING to do with money. When read in context, we see that it is talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. If someone truly wants to be filled with the Holy Spirit, then God will never deny him but will always give it to him. To take the statement out of context and use it to apply to financial gain is reprehensible (and poor Bible exegesis to boot!).

Then there's Malachi 3:10: "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

That is one of the favourite verses of the Prosperity Gospel proponents, but it's a verse speaking to the nation of Israel at that time, referring to the covenant that God made with those people. It isn't a promise of riches for the modern-day Christian. To use it that way is to abuse it and to give people false expectations of one's life as a follower of Jesus.

Then there's this verse:

PROVERBS 3:9-10: "Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine."

This is a proverb. By definition, a proverb is something that may hold true some of the time and maybe even much of the time, but not all of the time. In other words, it's not an absolute truth or a promise. It's like saying, "A stitch in time saves nine" or "Time flies when you're having fun" or "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

Let's use the last one as an example. That bird in the hand, if a chicken, might be worth two in the bush if the two in the bush are sparrows. But if the bird in hand is a sparrow and the two in the bush are chickens, the chickens are worth more so that means the proverb isn't always true.

Then there's Luke 6:38: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

This is one of the favourites of the Prosperity Gospel people. It's a great example of how you can make the Bible say anything you want by taking a verse out of context. When read IN context, it's obvious that this has nothing to do with money or possessions. It follows a passage about not judging others and it means that, how you treat others will have a bearing on how others treat you. For example, if you give people mercy, you will receive mercy. That is the measure being talked about. It has nothing to do with wealth or monetary gain.

Lastly, koko cited the improper use of James 4:2: "ye have not because ye ask not". Again, we have to take a look at it in context. The whole verse reads: "You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God."

The entire passage is talking about people following the world's wisdom re: getting what they want out of life -- and what the world wants is not necessarily good or even worth having. People driven by envy will fight or even kill to get what they want. James is telling people to trust God to give them what they need according to his wisdom and blessing. It does NOT promise that God will give people everything they want or think they have to have. It certainly doesn't say that, if you want to be rich, ask God and he'll make it happen. Again, it's another abuse of the verse when the Prosperity preacher uses it that way.

As for the kinds of monetary gifts I give to the church, they are intended for the upkeep of the church building, the supply of materials in the Sunday School and library, the salary of the pastor, for overseas missions that provide food, education, health care in countries where these are lacking as well as for local soup kitchens and youth hostels. I expect no personal return on any of those things and am grateful that I have the financial ability to help others who are less fortunate. That, to me, is the purpose of giving away money within a church setting. There is a finance committee that makes sure the money is used properly.

Lastly, when it comes to telling non-believers about the blessings of becoming a Christian, I focus on the relationship with Jesus. That is the greatest blessing. I talk about being filled with the Holy Spirit and the guidance and wisdom and strength and comfort he gives as we go through life. I certainly don't tell them that life is suddenly going to become perfect, that all their dreams will come true, that their bank account is sure to grow, that nothing bad is ever going to happen to them ever again. Anybody who tries to entice people into a church using those lies is deplorable. Life is still going to be full of challenges. The difference is that I don't have to deal with them in my own puny human power any more. I have the Lord's help, for which I am truly grateful.

[unknown soldier]

For Christians to live for what brings the body pleasure is death, Christians live to do what brings God pleasure. That is why Paul calls himself a slave of Christ. He lived to bring pleasure and glory to Christ.

So to say that Christ is to bring us pleasure outside of what Christianity believes.

If God exists and is miserable, then that's his problem. He doesn't care if we're hurting.

And who wants to be a slave? I prefer freedom.

[unknown soldier]

I don’t give money to get gifts from God. If I give money, I give it freely, because I think it is good and I want to do so for example to help others.

Well then by all means give me some money. It's really good to do so, and you'll be helping an "other."

And I can give money for church for example to the work they do. If they do the job as I think they should, I have no need to ask money back. And probably even if they would not do so, I wouldn’t ask it, but I could stop giving money, if it seems it doesn’t go to good purpose.

Why can't the churches just get everything they need from God? That way their poor congregants can save what precious little they have to pay for food and rent. Maybe the churches don't believe prayer works. That's why they know they need to ask for money.

Maybe you told it already, but please show the scripture you are speaking of?

You're probably stalling, but Malachi 3:10 in exchange for money promises a blessing so big you can't handle it, in exchange for crops Proverbs 3:9-10 promises "overflowing barns," and Luke 6:38 guarantees that in exchange for what you give you will be rewarded with "a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap." Of course, these are all false and empty promises stuffed into the mouth of a puppet God by the hucksters who created that God.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to Overcomer in post #31]

Fair play to you - I have to agree with the sentiment of nearly all of what you wrote there. Thanks for taking the trouble to provide some context around some of those biblical passages.

Perhaps rather unfair of me to then zero in on just one sentence, but this caught my eye:

It's a great example of how you can make the Bible say anything you want by taking a verse out of context.

Again, I agree. We see some extremely egregious examples of doing this in the 'Science' sub-forum, for example - I may have to 'steal' that quote (with proper attribution, of course) in due course.

[1213]

Well then by all means give me some money. It's really good to do so, and you'll be helping an "other."

I think you need first wisdom of the just, before that, the money would be wasted.

…Why can't the churches just get everything they need from God? That way their poor congregants can save what precious little they have to pay for food and rent. Maybe the churches don't believe prayer works. That's why they know they need to ask for money….

I believe everything we need is from God and everything I have, is from God and without Him I would be nothing. And I am thankful to God for everything I have. So, if I would give something to Church, I would give something that is from God.

…You're probably stalling, but Malachi 3:10 in exchange for money promises a blessing so big you can't handle it, in exchange for crops Proverbs 3:9-10 promises "overflowing barns," and Luke 6:38 guarantees that in exchange for what you give you will be rewarded with "a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap." Of course, these are all false and empty promises …

Thanks, I like to be sure what you mean.

Bring the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and test me now in this," says Yahweh of hosts, "if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough for.
Malachi 3:10

So, you claim you did this, and you did not get enough rain? Do you live in some desert? I know you didn’t do that, because the temple that Malachi is speaking of doesn’t exist at the moment.

Honor Yahweh with your substance, With the first fruits of all your increase: So your barns will be filled with plenty, And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 3:9-10

So, you sacrificed best part of your harvest and now you have no bread and wine?

"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."
Luke 6:38

What are you missing? Do you have enough food and something to drink?

Anyway, none of those are speaking of gifts, which is what I was speaking of.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you all!

Perhaps some who claim that you can buy gifts from God with money have overlooked this verse:

Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! Acts 8:20

Actually, I was never told I can buy gifts from God. I was told that if I'm generous, then God would grant me what I needed. This principle Oral Roberts called "seed faith" and he based it on Bible passages like Malachi 3:9-10, Matthew 6:33, Galatians 6:7 and Luke 6:38. Many of the Bible writers clearly wanted to entice followers that way.

Well, we often mix up what we need with what we want.

As for the verses, I think Overcomer went through some of them, but:

Malachi 3 is referring to Israel, but that applies to us now as well. But not about material wealth. Didn't Christ say that we must take up our cross to follow Him (if indeed we choose to follow Him)? Did He not say that the Son of Man has no place to lay His head? More about spiritual wealth and blessings (faith, bread - the true manna from heaven, which is Christ and the spiritual food that He gives us, holy spirit/the water of life; peace - not as the world gives peace but as CHRIST gives us HIS peace, etc).

That being said, giving to a religion does not equal giving to God (despite what religious men claim). The only religion that God sanctioned was the Temple/Priesthood/Law that He gave to Israel. But now (and ever since Christ), we are to worship in spirit and in truth. Not on this mountain (religion) or that one. But in and through Christ. I have never belonged to a religion. I have always had what I need, and I have been blessed in Christ.


Matthew 6:33 in context (which is referring to not worrying, including not worrying about things we need, that God knows we need):

“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


This is true as well (and receiving what you need). But serving the Kingdom, serving Christ, serving God... has nothing to do with giving money or time or service to a religion.


Galatians 6 refers to those who will reap eternal life (and again has nothing to do with giving or belonging to a religious sect or denomination).

Luke 6 in some more context:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Using this verse to suggest that people will get money (for example) if they give money (for example) just looks like an abuse of the verse. Especially when that someone is saying give ME money, and you will be blessed for it. Shouldn't that be a big red flag?

By the way, I always thought that Acts 8:20 is a very strange passage. Why would God become angry with somebody for thinking he could buy something from God? At worst, Simon the magician was perhaps naive.

God might not have been angry just because Peter might have been angry. And perhaps Simon the magician was naive, as you suggest. My point was not the emotion of the reaction, but rather the understanding that you cannot buy gifts from God with money. They are GIFTS. You use them to serve God, Christ, the Kingdom, and others. They are not for personal gain.

Giving money to a religion does not mean that you are giving money to God. What in the world would God need with your money?

If God existed, then he wouldn't need money, of course. However, people want money, and some of the more unscrupulous of us find the idea of a God to be very useful in acquiring easy money.

Agreed.

I wonder, then, why anybody would make up a God and then insist so strongly that he exists.

I don't think anyone could (or has) made up the idea of a god/gods; though they certainly could have stolen what others shared freely. But I do understand that men (and religion) have used the idea of God (and people who are seeking Him) to make a profit for themselves. I don't see how they themselves can possibly believe in God, or else how could they go about lying and robbing people? Including robbing actual widows and orphans - since I know of at least one sect that suggests people bequeath their estates to them in their wills, thereby literally robbing orphans of what should be theirs. At least one (that same one) even target children, teaching them to give them what few dollars they might have, instead of buying themselves an ice cream cone - thereby literally taking candy from babies.

If you want to give to those in need, then do so, of course. Christ even says to give to the one in need, and this is from love (for Him, for God, for one's fellow man).

Why do you need Christ to tell you to give to those in need? Would you not bother to give if Christ didn't say so?

I simply said that Christ does teach it. Some give because Christ teaches it, some give because the law (of love) is written upon their heart, hence they do the requirements of that law naturally.

Christ did not say "give your money to me"; nor did He teach His disciples to say this either. In fact He said, "what you have received for FREE, give for FREE" (Matt 10:8).

I'm not so sure. John 12:5-7 tells us that Jesus and his disciples kept a common purse. The money in that purse was probably from donations that were solicited.

Well, what I wrote was true - Christ did not say "give your money to me", nor did He teach this to His disciples. The teaching we do have written from Christ is "what you have received for FREE, give for FREE."

Why ignore that to claim something that is just an opinion (and one that conflicts with the evidence)?

Christ is not "Christianity" (the religion).

The religion is not from Him. We might see this (if indeed we are looking at Christ - the Truth and the Light).... from how divided "Christendom" is (Christ is not divided, and He even said that a house divided will not stand), and from the many opposing and conflicting teachings that exist in Christendom just from sect to sect... and from how the teachings in Christendom are in conflict with Christ or are not what Christ taught in word or deed.

Which is why we should be testing and holding all things up against the Light (Christ). He is the Truth and the One to whom God told us to listen.

If we received for free, we obviously did not buy it. And what we received for free, we are to give for free.

If you received something for free, then you may not be able to give away. In any case, what do you give away?

Whatever we receive, such as truth if one has received truth to share (no selling it in books, no selling tickets to come hear one speak, no taking a fee for preaching, no making a profit off the gospel... one cannot serve both God and money). Or a gift that can help build up the Body of Christ (no charging for any gift of the spirit, such as healing).


Freely you have received, freely give.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[unknown soldier]

I don't think the problem is what the Bible says about money. I think the problem is the way that some people misinterpret what the Bible says about money.

If you think you are skilled at interpreting the Bible correctly while other, lesser interpreters are getting it wrong, that's OK with me as long as you can demonstrate your ability to succeed where they fail.

I'm thinking specifically of the Prosperity Gospel, a peculiarly American phenomenon that, sadly, is creeping across the border into Canada where I live. That particular slant on the Bible is indeed all about planting seed money and reaping monetary rewards -- and look at the wealthy preachers who are purporting it!

I know the prosperity gospel very well. I remember when I was a Christian how preachers like Oral Roberts and Robert Tilton used it to bilk a lot of money out of people. They essentially used the Bible's commands to place faith in God and Jesus to get people to be gullible. Christian beliefs are very handy for deceiving people. "Gullible are those who have not seen yet believe!"

As a Christian, I really hate to see the way some of these people rip off their followers...

Then tell people to think critically and be slow to trust anybody who makes grandiose promises pitching for funds with nothing to show for their claims.

-- like Creflo Dollar wanting his congregation to buy a new plane for him because his old one needed replacing. Seriously? Who in their right mind would follow someone like that?

Somebody who has been taught to have faith?

"Ask and ye shall receive" (Mark 10:30) This verse has NOTHING to do with money. When read in context, we see that it is talking about receiving the Holy Spirit.

You've got the wrong citation. Matthew 7:7-8 promises:

Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

There is no mention here of any Holy Spirit. This passage is a promise with no specified limitations. It appears that Jesus may have been the first "prosperity preacher."

Then there's Malachi 3:10: "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

That is one of the favourite verses of the Prosperity Gospel proponents, but it's a verse speaking to the nation of Israel at that time, referring to the covenant that God made with those people. It isn't a promise of riches for the modern-day Christian. To use it that way is to abuse it and to give people false expectations of one's life as a follower of Jesus.

So your interpretation is that Malachi 3:10 is just a promise that has no relevance to Christians. It's a promise that has been long expired even to the Jews! Christians nowadays can simply ignore this passage as unimportant to them. At most Malachi 3:10 is a historical curiosity documenting that at one very short time in one place God was really nice to a relatively small tribe of people granting them great returns on their investments! Sadly for the rest of us, we were not there at that time to reap God's rewards. We "missed the boat" and must be satisfied with getting nothing from God no matter how generous we are.

Well, your interpretation is rather unusual. Most Christians see God as unchanging; "the same yesterday, today, and forever." They interpret the Bible as generally applying to all people in all places at all times. So for them Malachi 3:10 is general principle telling us that if we give, then we will receive.

PROVERBS 3:9-10: "Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine."

This is a proverb. By definition, a proverb is something that may hold true some of the time and maybe even much of the time, but not all of the time.

When is Proverbs 3:9-10 false? It appears that we need to take care when trusting what the Bible promises.

Then there's Luke 6:38: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

This is one of the favourites of the Prosperity Gospel people. It's a great example of how you can make the Bible say anything you want by taking a verse out of context. When read IN context, it's obvious that this has nothing to do with money or possessions. It follows a passage about not judging others and it means that, how you treat others will have a bearing on how others treat you. For example, if you give people mercy, you will receive mercy. That is the measure being talked about. It has nothing to do with wealth or monetary gain.

I'm not sure how you're interpreting the passage that way. Yes, it follows a passage about not judging others (verse 37), but I see no reason to think that verse 37 constrains verse 38 in any way.

As for the kinds of monetary gifts I give to the church, they are intended for the upkeep of the church building, the supply of materials in the Sunday School and library, the salary of the pastor, for overseas missions that provide food, education, health care in countries where these are lacking as well as for local soup kitchens and youth hostels.

So it is useless for your church to depend on prayer for any of that. They need money from those who will give it to them. I wonder why they cannot depend on God for what they need. After all, they tell their congregation to pray and have faith in God. They evidently don't practice what they preach.

I expect no personal return on any of those things and am grateful that I have the financial ability to help others who are less fortunate.

Don't you expect to be rewarded in heaven? And if you want to help out those in need, why do you need a church?

Lastly, when it comes to telling non-believers about the blessings of becoming a Christian, I focus on the relationship with Jesus. That is the greatest blessing. I talk about being filled with the Holy Spirit and the guidance and wisdom and strength and comfort he gives as we go through life. I certainly don't tell them that life is suddenly going to become perfect, that all their dreams will come true, that their bank account is sure to grow, that nothing bad is ever going to happen to them ever again. Anybody who tries to entice people into a church using those lies is deplorable.

In other words, life can still suck even with the Holy Spirit.

In summary, I find your interpretations of Bible passages to be very strained. It appears that you are forcing those passages into a framework that fits your preconceived notion that the Bible is perfect and has no false and empty promises. I think that I have successfully argued that your interpretations are flawed and that the Bible does indeed contain many wild and empty promises and is a very handy resource for hucksters looking to con people out of money.

[unknown soldier]

Well, we often mix up what we need with what we want.

That's true, but what a person may want is important too. I generally try to give people what they want if I am reasonably able to and assuming that the gift-giving results in no undo harm to either the recipient or myself.

And that's where Christian theology gets into trouble. If an all-powerful, loving God exists, then I see no reason at all for him to refuse to give us what we ask for assuming no harm results. Requests might include new cars, home theaters, nice houses--why would he refuse to give us these nice things? He's able to, and people could enjoy such gifts.

My quick and easy answer is that God fails to grant our requests because he doesn't exist.

See that, Tam? As an atheist one need not wrestle with tough issues raised by trying to reconcile the way the world is with the way it should be if God exists.

As for the verses, I think Overcomer went through some of them...

See my response to OC (post 37). I posted a detailed critique of his interpretations of the relevant Bible passages which I think is relevant to your own interpretations.

God might not have been angry just because Peter might have been angry.

Peter was supposed to be representing God, so his actions were presumably influenced by the Holy Spirit. The Bible God tends to be very intolerant of imperfections in his creatures which is very odd considering that he created us the way we are warts and all.

My point was not the emotion of the reaction, but rather the understanding that you cannot buy gifts from God with money. They are GIFTS. You use them to serve God, Christ, the Kingdom, and others. They are not for personal gain.

Didn't you ever buy a gift for a friend? It's even very possible to buy your own gift. If God has good things to offer, then I'd gladly buy something from him if he hasn't given it to me. Buying a gift is better than no gift at all.

Of course, buying gifts from God is impossible if he doesn't exist. This whole issue is quickly and easily resolved if we just face the fact that God only exists in the minds of believers.

I don't think anyone could (or has) made up the idea of a god/gods; though they certainly could have stolen what others shared freely.

I don't know if I can steal a god, but I can easily make one up. Gods are actually easy to make up, and that's why we see many gods originating all over the world in different places, times, and cultures. The God you believe in is like these other gods having emerged in one place, time, and from one people. Like these other gods Yahweh is a puppet given a voice and manipulated by his "puppeteers," the Christian clergy.

But I do understand that men (and religion) have used the idea of God (and people who are seeking Him) to make a profit for themselves. I don't see how they themselves can possibly believe in God, or else how could they go about lying and robbing people?

That's a great question that I have often pondered. I suppose a person can be so deluded that that person will believe her own lies. Another possibility is that a god-swindler rationalizes his acts as what God wants for him.

Why do you need Christ to tell you to give to those in need? Would you not bother to give if Christ didn't say so?

I simply said that Christ does teach it. Some give because Christ teaches it, some give because the law (of love) is written upon their heart, hence they do the requirements of that law naturally.

I give because I want to live in harmony with other people knowing that what's good for them is probably good for me too.

See that? Acting morally need not be based in any gods.

Well, what I wrote was true - Christ did not say "give your money to me", nor did He teach this to His disciples. The teaching we do have written from Christ is "what you have received for FREE, give for FREE."

I see no evidence for any of your assertions here. Telling people to give is not the same as telling them not to take. We do not know that Christ and his disciples never solicited money. If they kept a purse, then where did that money come from?

Why ignore that to claim something that is just an opinion (and one that conflicts with the evidence)?

I'm just using basic common sense. I know that when a group keeps a till, especially a religious group, then the money in that till almost always comes from donations to that group.

The religion is not from Him. We might see this (if indeed we are looking at Christ - the Truth and the Light).... from how divided "Christendom" is (Christ is not divided, and He even said that a house divided will not stand), and from the many opposing and conflicting teachings that exist in Christendom just from sect to sect... and from how the teachings in Christendom are in conflict with Christ or are not what Christ taught in word or deed.

Is it safe to assume that the teachings you attribute to Christ are "true"? If so, then you are like those Christians who disagree with you; they all think they have the truth.

Anyway, if no God exists, it is very easy to explain all the divisions in Christendom. People tend to disagree especially when definitive evidence is lacking. Without any real God, there is no God to set people straight about what he wants from them. As a result, they believe and act based on what they come up themselves.

Which is why we should be testing and holding all things up against the Light (Christ). He is the Truth and the One to whom God told us to listen.

I test claims using logic and by checking the facts. Maybe that's why we differ.

Whatever we receive, such as truth if one has received truth to share (no selling it in books, no selling tickets to come hear one speak, no taking a fee for preaching, no making a profit off the gospel... one cannot serve both God and money).

When you offer your truth to others, do you tell them that your truth is based on your religious beliefs?

Or a gift that can help build up the Body of Christ (no charging for any gift of the spirit, such as healing).

Why does Christ's body need to be built up? Is it in a state of disrepair?

[koko]

There simply is no basis for saying that Malachi 3:10 is/was only applicable during Old Testament times or that the other verses were time restricted. If that is so then the Ten Commandments only apply to those times as well. This is just logical. Thus, the alleged time restriction is illogical, baseless, and biblically wrong.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Well, we often mix up what we need with what we want.

That's true, but what a person may want is important too.

Maybe to them. But that does not mean those wants are actually important.

Regardless, your thread is about offering a money-back guarantee for promises that are not kept. God did not promise that you will receive everything you have ever wanted in this life. Therefore, He has broken no promises.

Now if a religion says that you can be rich (materially) in this world, if only you give to them (the religion), then they would be the ones you should be taking your grievance TO.

But God did not tell you to do that (give your money or time or service or obedience or faith) to a religion.

He said,

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

See that, Tam? As an atheist one need not wrestle with tough issues raised by trying to reconcile the way the world is with the way it should be if God exists.

Neither does ignoring 'tough' issues mean that the issue doesn't exist.

As for the verses, I think Overcomer went through some of them...

See my response to OC (post 37). I posted a detailed critique of his interpretations of the relevant Bible passages which I think is relevant to your own interpretations.

They weren't all the same, but I guess I will just leave my previous post to stand on those.

Except for one of your interpretations here:

Matthew 7:7-8 promises:

Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

There is no mention here of any Holy Spirit. This passage is a promise with no specified limitations. It appears that Jesus may have been the first "prosperity preacher."

In order to be a prosperity preacher, would one not have to ask for people to give YOU things?


Where in the verse in question does Christ say to give Him money?

It says ASK and it will be given to YOU. Seek... and you will find. Knock... and the door will be opened.

The only thing you would be "spending" here... would be faith (though faith also is a gift).

God might not have been angry just because Peter might have been angry.

Peter was supposed to be representing God, so his actions were presumably influenced by the Holy Spirit. The Bible God tends to be very intolerant of imperfections in his creatures which is very odd considering that he created us the way we are warts and all.

I'm not sure you understand what is written.

Was Peter representing God when he struck with his sword and harmed the servant of another man (at the arrest of Christ)? If so, why did Christ rebuke him for doing it? Just because Peter (or anyone else) does something, does not mean that their actions were influenced by holy spirit. If you want to know something about God (and if you want to know God), then you need to look to Christ, who is the image of God, the perfect representation of God.

My point was not the emotion of the reaction, but rather the understanding that you cannot buy gifts from God with money. They are GIFTS. You use them to serve God, Christ, the Kingdom, and others. They are not for personal gain.

Didn't you ever buy a gift for a friend?

It's even very possible to buy your own gift. If God has good things to offer, then I'd gladly buy something from him if he hasn't given it to me. Buying a gift is better than no gift at all.

What does your response have to do with the point about not being able to buy gifts from God with money?

I don't think anyone could (or has) made up the idea of a god/gods; though they certainly could have stolen what others shared freely.

I don't know if I can steal a god, but I can easily make one up.

Well, sure you can, now. You would just be borrowing (or stealing) from what is already there.

But I do understand that men (and religion) have used the idea of God (and people who are seeking Him) to make a profit for themselves. I don't see how they themselves can possibly believe in God, or else how could they go about lying and robbing people?

That's a great question that I have often pondered. I suppose a person can be so deluded that that person will believe her own lies. Another possibility is that a god-swindler rationalizes his acts as what God wants for him.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they are simply unbelievers. Such as those spoken of at Psalm 14:1, and Ezekiel 8:12

Why do you need Christ to tell you to give to those in need? Would you not bother to give if Christ didn't say so?

I simply said that Christ does teach it. Some give because Christ teaches it, some give because the law (of love) is written upon their heart, hence they do the requirements of that law naturally.

I give because I want to live in harmony with other people knowing that what's good for them is probably good for me too.

See that? Acting morally need not be based in any gods.

I believe I said that some do the requirements of the law naturally. Atheists can and do act out of love as well.

Well, what I wrote was true - Christ did not say "give your money to me", nor did He teach this to His disciples. The teaching we do have written from Christ is "what you have received for FREE, give for FREE."

I see no evidence for any of your assertions here.

My assertions are what the evidence shows.

Do you have any evidence that Christ ever said 'give me your money'? Or that He ever taught His disciples to do this? Or does the evidence show that He said to give for free what you receive for free. Give to the one who asks of you, do not turn away from the one in need, etc?

Telling people to give is not the same as telling them not to take.

Well, when you supply some evidence that He taught people to take, then we can talk about that. In the meantime, when a person teaches others to give, give, give... and there is no teaching to 'take take take'... then it seems reasonable that one conclude this Teacher taught us to give to others, not demand that others give to us.

We do not know that Christ and his disciples never solicited money. If they kept a purse, then where did that money come from?

It could have come from the disciples, their own earnings, unsolicited.

The religion is not from Him. We might see this (if indeed we are looking at Christ - the Truth and the Light).... from how divided "Christendom" is (Christ is not divided, and He even said that a house divided will not stand), and from the many opposing and conflicting teachings that exist in Christendom just from sect to sect... and from how the teachings in Christendom are in conflict with Christ or are not what Christ taught in word or deed.

Is it safe to assume that the teachings you attribute to Christ are "true"? If so, then you are like those Christians who disagree with you; they all think they have the truth.

If you want to know if something is true, then hold it up against the Truth, the Light (Christ).

Anyway, if no God exists, it is very easy to explain all the divisions in Christendom.

It is also easy to explain the divisions if the religion is not from Christ.

Which is why we should be testing and holding all things up against the Light (Christ). He is the Truth and the One to whom God told us to listen.

I test claims using logic and by checking the facts. Maybe that's why we differ.

Maybe, but people make mistakes with their logic, and facts can change (especially when people misinterpret or overlook evidence, or even come across new evidence).

Truth does not change.

Whatever we receive, such as truth if one has received truth to share (no selling it in books, no selling tickets to come hear one speak, no taking a fee for preaching, no making a profit off the gospel... one cannot serve both God and money).

When you offer your truth to others, do you tell them that your truth is based on your religious beliefs?

If I share some truth that I have received from my Lord (HIS truth), then I give credit to Him.

I'm not sure what your question has to do with giving for free, what you receive for free.

Or a gift that can help build up the Body of Christ (no charging for any gift of the spirit, such as healing).

Why does Christ's body need to be built up? Is it in a state of disrepair?

If you are building a house on a foundation, do you say the house is in a state of disrepair? Or do you just say that you are building a house?

(and again, the point is meant to be about giving freely what you received freely)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy