God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[tam]

May you have peace!

Man (Adam and Eve) was made in God's image, true, but mankind did not remain in God's image. We can know this because a) man has sin in him... and b) because we are being made into the image of Christ (Romans 8:29), and Christ is the Image of God. If we are being made into the image of Christ (who is the image of God), how could we be in that image to begin with?

The suggestion that man(kind) will exist eternally because man was made in the image of God, this does not take into account that man(kind) is in the image of Adam... AFTER... Adam sinned (and so, after sin and death entered into him).


Not to mention the fact that - unlike God - man had to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever.




Just something to ponder, and even ask the Master (Christ) about.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #469]

More beating around the bush.

No, God is very clear in His Word that man will exist in one state or the other for eternity.

Yes, grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

No, God is very clear in His Word that no human judged worthy of death will exist in any state for eternity.

Grace and peace, Pinseeker.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #459]

Checkpoint wrote:

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

Pinseeker wrote:

To answer your question -- as if it needed answering -- when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. That's really kind of senseless question

Of course it needed answering. Senseless it was not.

Your answer was an avoidance. I did not ask whether or not he or she is then "spiritually alive".

Please answer, therefore, the question I actually asked.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

God is very clear in His Word that no human judged worthy of death will exist in any state for eternity.

He says and shows precisely the opposite.

All humans, depending on emerging from the Judgment having been been judged a good and faithful servant or not, will exist in a conscious state. Nowhere in Scripture does He ever say or show differently.

Those who are proclaimed good and faithful servants dwell in the house of the Lord forever, as David puts it in Psalm 23, and those not proclaimed good and faithful servants will not dwell in the house of the Lord, synonymous with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21, but rather... elsewhere, away from the house of the Lord, the new heaven and new earth, in "outer darkness."

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

Man (Adam and Eve) was made in God's image, true, but mankind did not remain in God's image.

Not His true image, no. God created man sinless, but when man (in Adam) sinned, then he -- man, not God -- soiled that image horribly. Sin did not remove the image of God, but horribly disfigured it. We still retain echoes of that image, and long for the restoration of the true image of God, in the likeness of the Redeemer, Christ Jesus. Consider:

1. Why do we need other people? And why do we need fellowship with others? Because we are relational beings, and we are created to share in the perfect fellowship that the three Persons of the triune Jehovah have enjoyed from all eternity.

2. Why do we have moral compasses, thinking there is a standard of compassion and goodness and grace and love that we should attain to and maintain? Because God and full of compassion and goodness and grace and love and as Creator is thus the definer of all those things.

3. Why do we have emotions like love, hate, anger, sorrow, jealousy, etc.? Because God Himself does. The difference is that we experience these emotions in selfish, prideful, sinful -- unholy -- ways, whereas God does not.

In all these things and more, we fall short of God's standard, of course, because of our sin, but we know there is a perfect manifestation of them, even if we never reach that perfection, and we know we should strive for those things. The list is endless, really; I could go on and on and on and on, but no need; I'm sure you get the idea. We still retain a shadow or reflection of God's perfect image -- we value the things He values, desire the things He desires, etc., but in very imperfect, sinful ways.

We can know this because a) man has sin in him... and b) because we are being made into the image of Christ (Romans 8:29), and Christ is the Image of God. If we are being made into the image of Christ (who is the image of God), how could we be in that image to begin with?

Well, not far off. I just said this, but as humans, we are being restored to the perfect human image of God as Jesus was and is. As Paul says, the man Jesus is the exact -- unspoiled, not distorted in any way -- image of the invisible God... in Whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Christ to reconcile to Himself (the Father) all things, making peace by the blood of Jesus's cross. And in the meantime, we rest in the perfect righteousness of Christ, knowing that God will bring His good work in us to completion at the day of Christ -- when He returns. In this life, we are being conformed to that perfect image of God as displayed in the Person of Christ.

The suggestion that man(kind) will exist eternally because man was made in the image of God, this does not take into account that man(kind) is in the image of Adam... AFTER... Adam sinned (and so, after sin and death entered into him).

No, mankind, by nature, is in the same state as Adam -- like him, possessing the same spoiled (to put it mildly) image of God -- but not in his (Adam's) "image," other than to say we possess the same sin-stained image of God as Adam did after the Fall. As Paul says in Romans 5, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men.

Not to mention the fact that - unlike God - man had to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever.

This means that man as creature is the creation of God as Creator and life giver and our provider and sustenance -- or strength and portion -- forever.

Just something to ponder, and even ask the Master (Christ) about.

Sure.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

Of course it needed answering. Senseless it was not. Your answer was an avoidance. I did not ask whether or not he or she is then "spiritually alive".

Okay, maybe "senseless" was a poor choice of verbiage. I apologize. But I would maintain that it is a misdirected question, which is why I answered ultimately redirected it. You asked:

• "When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?"

And what I did was actually project beyond that question to where you were intending to go -- or at least seemed to be -- which was to then proclaim the concepts "spiritually dead" and "physically non-existent" to be one and the same, and then answered thusly (abridged):

• "You're still... comparing apples to oranges... I have said many times -- and you have agreed -- that if one is spiritually dead, that does not then mean that they are physically non-existent or physically dead. One can obviously be very much physically alive but at the same time spiritually dead." (emphasis added)

This, Checkpoint, is the issue. I did then say, in answer to your question that when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive (which was not an "avoidance" in any way). The question you asked itself is the problem, which I directly addressed in point 2 immediately following that answer. . ADDITION (THIS POST): So again, when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. Well, of course that's true, right? And then I clarified (as I just stated above) that the more sensible, congruent question should instead be, "When one is spiritually dead, does it necessarily then follow that he or she has no physical existence?" And you should agree that the answer to that is no. Like I said, whether intentional or not, you're equating the spiritual and the physical, and that should not be done. To steal a line from Chris Rice, your original question was like asking, "What does the color nine smell like?" Well there is no color nine, and neither a color nor a number actually have a scent. Thus, though the on asking such a question may be desirous of an answer, but the question itself cannot be evaluated. Such was the case with your question.

Please answer, therefore, the question I actually asked.

I did. And now again.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

God is very clear in His Word that no human judged worthy of death will exist in any state for eternity.

He says and shows precisely the opposite.

All humans, depending on emerging from the Judgment having been been judged a good and faithful servant or not, will exist in a conscious state. Nowhere in Scripture does He ever say or show differently.

Scripture says many times that those who are not welcomed will not enter the kingdom of God but experience death as their eternal punishment.

Death means the absence of life. It does not mean, in either the dictionary or the Bible, "will exist in a conscious state", which could easily be a definition of being alive in the future. That is the opposite of what you claim.

Those who are proclaimed good and faithful servants dwell in the house of the Lord forever, as David puts it in Psalm 23, and those not proclaimed good and faithful servants will not dwell in the house of the Lord, synonymous with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21, but rather... elsewhere, away from the house of the Lord, the new heaven and new earth, in "outer darkness."

Grace and peace.

Well, what does the new heaven and new earth replace, and what happens before that?

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and there was no place for them.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

"the old order was the present heaven and earth with all things it had prior to the new heaven and new earth.

That includes all of Revelation 20, including that final judgment and its death aspect. All things will be made new: there is no place for anything of what will then be that old order; it will have passed away.



The "lake of fire" and ""outer darkness" are not literal places, they are figurative expressions.

Likewise, "the second death" is not a place but is eternal punishment of those subject to God's negative eternal judgment.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

Death means the absence of life. It does not mean, in either the dictionary or the Bible, "will exist in a conscious state", which could easily be a definition of being alive in the future. That is the opposite of what you claim.

Actually it's not the absolute opposite. I agree, in the sense that they will not exist in a conscious state in the new heaven and new earth. The Bible is very clear on this. Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

The "lake of fire" and ""outer darkness" are not literal places, they are figurative expressions.

The "lake of fire" and "outer darkness" are figurative expressions -- metaphors -- symbolizing different things:

I agree that "lake of fire" is not a literal place, but symbolic of the fact that the unrepentant will be figuratively immersed in the "lake" of God's judgment, symbolized by fire -- for eternity.

"Outer darkness" is also a metaphor, but for a literal place that the unrepentant will go away to -- away from the One Who is the Light. Upon the final Judgment, they will be sent away permanently from the Light, Jesus.

Likewise, "the second death" is not a place but is eternal punishment of those subject to God's negative eternal judgment.

I don't know who ever proclaimed the second death a place of any kind. Certainly not me; again, you seem to be putting words in my mouth. The second death is a state of being, a state in which the unrepentant spend eternity as a result of God's final Judgment. The punishment is the removal of God's grace and eternal separation from Jesus and the new heaven and new earth.

The most vivid and very real and literal... historical... biblical event that points forward in a penultimate way to what will happen to those on the wrong side (on Jesus's left) of the Judgment is what happened to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. On the very day that they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , they surely died -- but still consciously existed in a "darkness," away from Paradise -- just as God told them they would in Genesis 2 (v. 17). So it will be with the unrepentant post-Judgment. They will be sent away into an "outer darkness" -- "outer" because it will be devoid of God's grace, and only His judgment, having been issued once and for all, will remain. This is the second death, which is, as I said, a state of being.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

Of course it needed answering. Senseless it was not. Your answer was an avoidance. I did not ask whether or not he or she is then "spiritually alive".

Okay, maybe "senseless" was a poor choice of verbiage. I apologize. But I would maintain that it is a misdirected question, which is why I answered ultimately redirected it. You asked:

• "When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?"

And what I did was actually project beyond that question to where you were intending to go -- or at least seemed to be -- which was to then proclaim the concepts "spiritually dead" and "physically non-existent" to be one and the same, and then answered thusly (abridged):

• "You're still... comparing apples to oranges... I have said many times -- and you have agreed -- that if one is spiritually dead, that does not then mean that they are physically non-existent or physically dead. One can obviously be very much physically alive but at the same time spiritually dead." (emphasis added)

This, Checkpoint, is the issue. I did then say, in answer to your question that when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive (which was not an "avoidance" in any way). The question you asked itself is the problem, which I directly addressed in point 2 immediately following that answer. . ADDITION (THIS POST): So again, when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. Well, of course that's true, right? And then I clarified (as I just stated above) that the more sensible, congruent question should instead be, "When one is spiritually dead, does it necessarily then follow that he or she has no physical existence?" And you should agree that the answer to that is no. Like I said, whether intentional or not, you're equating the spiritual and the physical, and that should not be done. To steal a line from Chris Rice, your original question was like asking, "What does the color nine smell like?" Well there is no color nine, and neither a color nor a number actually have a scent. Thus, though the on asking such a question may be desirous of an answer, but the question itself cannot be evaluated. Such was the case with your question.

Please answer, therefore, the question I actually asked.

I did. And now again.

Grace and peace.

Respectfully, Pinseeker, the answer you gave, and have now repeated, avoids using some words used in the question, by replacing them with another word.

I asked

"When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?"

Your specific answer was:

"So again, when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. Well, of course that's true, right?"

Right, but that is not what I actually asked, which did not say "spiritually alive" but "have 'existence', 'exist spiritually'."

Instead of giving a direct answer, this, in your own words, is what you did:

"And what I did was actually project beyond that question";
"But I would maintain that it is a misdirected question, which is why I answered ultimately redirected it."

My actual question was not misdirected. It used terms that, in this discussion, originated with you and yet were replaced by you in your answers. The question was specific, and did not make any comparisons.

I am still awaiting a specific direct answer, using the terms used in the question.

Please, Pinseeker!

May the Lord give you His peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #468]

Checkpoint wrote:

↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:09 pm
With regard to "the lake of fire", this expression is not used to indicate "its figurative -- symbolic -- nature". It is used, in Revelation 20:14, as the figurative counterpart to the literal "second death". In the same way as are other matters in Revelation 1.

Not, apparently, to you, yes.

I wonder why that would be?

So anyone can see for themselves, by comparing the passages, I now repeat them.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 20:14 ....The lake of fire is the second death.

Both those passages make sense to me.

What needs to be explained is figurative; what is then identified is literal.

I mean:

a.) no, the lake of fire is not "used" to indicate its figurative -- symbolic -- nature, but the fact is that it is figurative and symbolic in nature, which you have said before

b.) and regarding the second death, it depends on what you mean by 'literal' -- yes, the second death is most certainly literal, but it is not physical in nature; literal annihilation of the person is not in view in Revelation 20; it is the permanent removal of God's grace from a person, and only God's judgment and its tangible and intangible effects remain for the person -- we see it in Jesus's question ("Why have you forsaken me?") and His final cry ("It is finished!") on the cross"



will be finally and completely spiritually dead, and will depart into "outer darkness" -- which is itself a symbolic term; what it will really be like is impossible for us to know -- away from Jesus and the new heaven and new earth.

Wow! Such a fascinating mix in there, Pinseeker.

It is not surprising, though. Having redefined the plain meaning of "death" in any context, you try to do the same with the biblical "second death".

For example, you redefine literal to exclude anything "physical in nature", and then describing the person as "continuing in existence and consciousness", which is just another way of saying someone is alive and not dead.

There is more, but not now.

Grace and peace.