Protestant and Catholic differences and why.

[Kryptic]

Hi all, this is my first post on this site and on a debate site in general in years.

I'd like to raise this topic of Catholic and reformed Christian theological differences, it could be any difference, although i'd like to tackle the topic of Mary, as well as the Mariology in the scripture vs tradition.
There does seem to be a lot more about Mary found outside of scripture, but within Catholic traditions.
For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph and was elevated to heaven through the power of God, these concepts are not found in scripture but are apart of her image within Catholicism.

I'm looking forward to a healthy fruitful discussion.
God Bless

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello kryptic, welcome.


If you're asking why there is such a divergence on beliefs about Mary, it's because to a greater or lesser extent the Catholics accepted teachings not directly based on the bible canon. This is because they do not hold the bible the only source of religious truth. I'm not a Catholic and cannot say where the belief of Mary's immaculate conception comes from but arguably the worship of a "holy mother " predates the Christian era as it was common in pagan systems.



JEHOVAHS WITNESSES

[Revelations won]

Dear Kryptic,

You posted:

“I'd like to raise this topic of Catholic and reformed Christian theological differences, it could be any difference, although i'd like to tackle the topic of Mary, as well as the Mariology in the scripture vs tradition.
There does seem to be a lot more about Mary found outside of scripture, but within Catholic traditions.
For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph and was elevated to heaven through the power of God, these concepts are not found in scripture but are apart of her image within Catholicism”.

In response to your post I would say that I am aware of this Catholic Doctrine, but I find no basis or evidence to support such theory.

As a case in point I quote from your post: “For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph”

Are the scriptures clear that JESUS HAD BROTHERS?

Kind regards,
RW

[Kryptic]

As a case in point I quote from your post: “For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph”

Are the scriptures clear that JESUS HAD BROTHERS?

I would say there is a solid argument for it.
In the bible it would be common for the word 'knew' when speaking of a marriage to mean to consummate the marriage and have children.

In Mathew 1:24-25 it says "24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus."

Other passages with the term knew, all throughout genesis for example showing the lineage, shows the term knew, and then it would say their children that came out of this union.
The other strange part of scripture that could show this would be

Mark 6:2-4 "2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” "


I'm not trying to take away from the significance of Mary, although i'd like to see her through the lens of scripture as that's all the recorded information we have of her life from birth to passing.
We know that in the gospel of John, as Jesus is on the cross he is telling mary and john that they are now mother and son, in a formal way explaining to john to look after Mary... John is also the only apostle to not only not die due to martyr, but die of old age.

John 19:26-27 "26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."

[Revelations won]

Dear Kryptic,

Revelations won wrote: ↑
As a case in point I quote from your post: “For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph”

Are the scriptures clear that JESUS HAD BROTHERS?

You said;

I would say there is a solid argument for it.
In the bible it would be common for the word 'knew' when speaking of a marriage to mean to consummate the marriage and have children.

In Mathew 1:24-25 it says "24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.”

MY RESPONSE:

As you quoted in Matthew 1:25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.”

I certainly agree with you in part in the Joseph never knew Mary until after she gave birth to the baby Jesus.

If he knew her not UNTIL she gave birth, this certainly implies that consummation until some time after the both of Jesus.



You said:
Other passages with the term knew, all throughout genesis for example showing the lineage, shows the term knew, and then it would say their children that came out of this union.
The other strange part of scripture that could show this would be

Mark 6:2-4 "2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” “

My response:

You did a great job of pointing out that Jesus indeed had brothers and sisters as found in Mark 6:3.

You said:

I'm not trying to take away from the significance of Mary, although i'd like to see her through the lens of scripture as that's all the recorded information we have of her life from birth to passing.
We know that in the gospel of John, as Jesus is on the cross he is telling mary and john that they are now mother and son, in a formal way explaining to john to look after Mary... John is also the only apostle to not only not die due to martyr, but die of old age.


Myr response:

I would herein observe that there is no evidence that John died of old age either.

John 19:26-27 "26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”

As far as I can observe there is no Biblical evidence supporting the Catholic doctrine regarding Mary’s alleged sinless status as the mother of Jesus.

Kind regards,
RW

[IAMinyou]

Hi all, this is my first post on this site and on a debate site in general in years.

I'd like to raise this topic of Catholic and reformed Christian theological differences, it could be any difference, although i'd like to tackle the topic of Mary, as well as the Mariology in the scripture vs tradition.
There does seem to be a lot more about Mary found outside of scripture, but within Catholic traditions.
For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph and was elevated to heaven through the power of God, these concepts are not found in scripture but are apart of her image within Catholicism.

I'm looking forward to a healthy fruitful discussion.
God Bless

Here is a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican ( IRON part of feet ) and the Protestant denominations of Christianity ( CLAY part of feet ). They both are the result of worshiping the Beast that teaches human hands how to build false gods out of earthen materials. The Beast began teaching human hands how to build false gods such as a mud brick and since then, our Creator's Beast kept refining those building techniques. The fourth kingdom where the Catholic Church began is the Roman Empire, the time when iron ore was being melted to produce iron false gods.

Daniel 2:
36: "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37: You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38: and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.
39: After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40: And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41: And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42: And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43: As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

[Kryptic]

Hi all, this is my first post on this site and on a debate site in general in years.

I'd like to raise this topic of Catholic and reformed Christian theological differences, it could be any difference, although i'd like to tackle the topic of Mary, as well as the Mariology in the scripture vs tradition.
There does seem to be a lot more about Mary found outside of scripture, but within Catholic traditions.
For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph and was elevated to heaven through the power of God, these concepts are not found in scripture but are apart of her image within Catholicism.

I'm looking forward to a healthy fruitful discussion.
God Bless

Here is a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican ( IRON part of feet ) and the Protestant denominations of Christianity ( CLAY part of feet ). They both are the result of worshiping the Beast that teaches human hands how to build false gods out of earthen materials. The Beast began teaching human hands how to build false gods such as a mud brick and since then, our Creator's Beast kept refining those building techniques. The fourth kingdom where the Catholic Church began is the Roman Empire, the time when iron ore was being melted to produce iron false gods.

Daniel 2:
36: "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37: You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38: and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.
39: After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40: And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41: And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42: And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43: As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

This was a cool quote and it does make you think it could be the churches that rise up since the first apostles.
What makes you think it's specifically talking about the catholics and prots? Also would you interpret this to be a negative or positive? Is this a statement of all christians today being deceived? I am a little confused as Daniel isn't the easiest book to digest through first observation.

Thanks for your reply.

[IAMinyou]

Hi all, this is my first post on this site and on a debate site in general in years.

I'd like to raise this topic of Catholic and reformed Christian theological differences, it could be any difference, although i'd like to tackle the topic of Mary, as well as the Mariology in the scripture vs tradition.
There does seem to be a lot more about Mary found outside of scripture, but within Catholic traditions.
For example the idea that Mary was born perfect, never sinned, never consummated her marriage covenant with Joseph and was elevated to heaven through the power of God, these concepts are not found in scripture but are apart of her image within Catholicism.

I'm looking forward to a healthy fruitful discussion.
God Bless

Here is a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican ( IRON part of feet ) and the Protestant denominations of Christianity ( CLAY part of feet ). They both are the result of worshiping the Beast that teaches human hands how to build false gods out of earthen materials. The Beast began teaching human hands how to build false gods such as a mud brick and since then, our Creator's Beast kept refining those building techniques. The fourth kingdom where the Catholic Church began is the Roman Empire, the time when iron ore was being melted to produce iron false gods.

Daniel 2:
36: "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37: You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38: and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.
39: After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40: And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41: And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42: And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43: As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

This was a cool quote and it does make you think it could be the churches that rise up since the first apostles.
What makes you think it's specifically talking about the catholics and prots? Also would you interpret this to be a negative or positive? Is this a statement of all christians today being deceived? I am a little confused as Daniel isn't the easiest book to digest through first observation.

Thanks for your reply.

Read all the words in this writing and it will help you understand why human hands build false gods according to the Beast. https://goddeception.wordpress.com/2016 ... u-are-one/

[Difflugia]

Here is a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican ( IRON part of feet ) and the Protestant denominations of Christianity ( CLAY part of feet ). They both are the result of worshiping the Beast that teaches human hands how to build false gods out of earthen materials. The Beast began teaching human hands how to build false gods such as a mud brick and since then, our Creator's Beast kept refining those building techniques. The fourth kingdom where the Catholic Church began is the Roman Empire, the time when iron ore was being melted to produce iron false gods.

This was a cool quote and it does make you think it could be the churches that rise up since the first apostles.
What makes you think it's specifically talking about the catholics and prots? Also would you interpret this to be a negative or positive? Is this a statement of all christians today being deceived? I am a little confused as Daniel isn't the easiest book to digest through first observation.

Thanks for your reply.

I hadn't heard the Catholic/Protestant interpretation of those verses, but if you're looking for an interesting diversion, Google "1843 chart". The Millerites (precursors to both Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses) distributed an entertaining chart of a pastor's interpretation of the prophecy. I found hi-res scans of the original here. A local Seventh-Day Adventist church has a fifteen-foot rendition of the statue that they put out when the tourists are in town.

Another popular interpretation of this was Clarence Larkin's Rightly Divining the Word. I found a scan at Google Books, but was honestly surprised that I didn't find more copies online. Every year at the local fair, I get handed two or three pamphlets based on that.

[JehovahsWitness]

I do believe Jehovahs Witnesses alone identify the feet of iron as the anglo-american world power (and the clay people powered movements within their realm).





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