The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #741

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:51 am
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:50 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #738]
Who are the 144,000?
They are spirit-anointed, born again Christians (John 3:5, 14:1, 2)
What do you mean, "spirit-anointed"? Would you say, for example, it is the same as, or similar to, "born again"?




Yes exactly; two different terms to describe the same group.
  • "Spirit anointed" : having the holy spirit confirm for them they are designated as future kings in Gods kingdom government (Ephesians 1:13, 14)
  • "born again" : taken into a special relationship with God as his adopted spiritual sons and daughters and thus in line to share the same inheritance as his firstborn son, Jesus namely, kingdom authority (Romans 8:15-17)


This same group (144,000) refered to in other ways in scripture depending on what aspect of their role /relationship is being highlighted

  • The bride of Christ
  • The new Jerusalem
  • Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
  • The little flock
  • (spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
  • Israel of God - Gal 6:16
...JW
Another clear and to the point post. Much appreciated.

Your answer to the following question leads me to ask for further clarification.
Revelations won wrote: ↑Are JW's the 144,000?
Not necessarily, some might be but certainly not all. For example, I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses but I am not of that number (John 10:16)
You are not of that number, not of that same group.

This being so, doesn't it naturally mean the different aspects that identify them, do not apply to you, individually and as a different number and as a different group?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #742

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:48 pm
You are not of that number, not of that same group.

This being so, doesn't it naturally mean the different aspects that identify them, do not apply to you, individually and as a different number and as a different group?





Whether one is spirit anointed cannot (and need not) be identifiable to anyone but to the individual concerned. It is a personal matter between the person and God. Jesus therefore did not provide a criteria by which someone else could verify this fact. (Compare 1 John 2:27)


KEY EXPRESSIONS EXPLAINED
  • "Spirit anointed" : having the holy spirit confirm for them they are designated as future kings in Gods kingdom government (Ephesians 1:13, 14)
  • "born again" : taken into a special relationship with God as his adopted spiritual sons and daughters and thus in line to share the same inheritance as his firstborn son, Jesus namely, kingdom authority (Romans 8:15-17)


ONE FLOCK, ONE GROUP

What Jesus did provide is a way to identify true Christians (see John 13:35). Spirit anointed Christians would be at the heart of the congregation but as individuals they would be indistinguishable from those that do not have such a calling (compare John 10:16). This is because it would only be essential for honest hearted ones to identify which religious group (out of the thousands of groups that would eventually claim to be "Christian") actually had Gods approval not which individuals in that group were anointed.


ZECHARIAH 8:23 - NWT

“This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations+ will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

NOTE The outpouring of holy spirit (and the accompanying mirouculous works) at Pentecost indicated that Gods approval had moved from the Jews to the Christians as a group. Anointed ones were not to expect flames to permentently float above their heads so others could identify them as "born again". Paul indicated even miraculous work would not be a permanent feature of the congregation¤.

¤For more on this point see the post : Is there biblical support for the teaching of the cessession of spectacular miracles?
viewtopic.php?p=958339#p958339



CONCLUSION There ARE no aspects of Christian behaviour which apply only to "the anointed" . Christians would be united as "one flock", one united group, regardless of their personal destiny. All Christans, anointed or not, should be identifiable by their Christian love and fine works.


JW



RELATED POSTS

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viewtopic.php?p=1001124#p1001124

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viewtopic.php?p=850455#p850455
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #743

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #742]
Checkpoint wrote:
You are not of that number, not of that same group.

This being so, doesn't it naturally mean the different aspects that identify them, do not apply to you, individually and as a different number and as a different group?
Whether one is spirit anointed cannot (and need not) be identifiable to anyone but to the individual concerned. It is a personal matter between the person and God. Jesus there for did not provide a criteria by which someone else could verify this fact.
That was not the subject or intent of my question, which you have therefore not answered.

You have provided various criteria anyway, and hence my question, which was about those who do not claim to be spirit-anointed.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #744

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:52 am
You have provided various criteria anyway ...
You'll have to be more specific. List "the criteria" you are refering to, (with a direct quote to my words) and I will be happy to clarify what I believe n relation to said "critera" to the best of my ability.



JW
criterion (plural CRITERA)

1: a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #745

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:52 am.... my question, ... was about those who do not claim to be spirit-anointed.
Perhaps you can clarify, what would you like to know about those who do not claim to be spirit anointed?






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Romans 14:8

Checkpoint
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #746

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:33 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:52 am.... my question, ... was about those who do not claim to be spirit-anointed.
Perhaps you can clarify, what would you like to know about those who do not claim to be spirit anointed?


JW
From this post to you now, whether or not those not called to be spirit-anointed or born again, consider themselves to be included in any or all of the following:
This same group (144,000) refered to in other ways in scripture depending on what aspect of their role /relationship is being highlighted

The bride of Christ
The new Jerusalem
Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
The little flock
(spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
Israel of God - Gal 6:16

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #747

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:52 pm
From this post to you now, whether or not those not called to be spirit-anointed or born again, consider themselves to be included in any or all of the following:
This same group (144,000) refered to in other ways in scripture depending on what aspect of their role /relationship is being highlighted

The bride of Christ
The new Jerusalem
Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
The little flock
(spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
Israel of God - Gal 6:16



No. Those are all terms that describe those that will eventually rule with Christ in heaven.








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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #748

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

After reviewing many pages of your claims and observing many unanswered questions from others, I find this amusing to say the least. For example:

Checkpoint clearly pointed out:

“Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples from all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.—

Checkpoint also raised a very powerful question:

“How could Jesus be appointed king in 1914 if he was given "all authority" in 33 CE?”

I did not observe a clear and definitive answer from you regarding this question posed by Checkpoint.



You also claim that God established his governing “kingdom” in 1914.

Is this kingdom ruled by the “Lord of lords and King of kings”?

You indicate the there are also 144,000 co-rulers or administrators assisting in the administration of his kingdom.

Who are these administrators?

When were they chosen or appointed?

Do you have their names?

How were they chosen?

You claim this kingdom was started in 1914 and how many of these 144,000 have been selected during this period of well over 100 years?

I might point out that in Amos 3:7 it is clearly stated that God will do nothing , but what he will reveal unto his secrets unto servants the prophets.

Who are the prophets that he revealed this major event of establishing this kingdom in 1914?

I look forward to hearing you answers to all of my questions.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #749

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:17 am Dear JW,

After reviewing many pages of your claims and observing many unanswered questions from others, I find this amusing to say the least. For example:

Checkpoint clearly pointed out:

“Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples from all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.—

Checkpoint also raised a very powerful question:

“How could Jesus be appointed king in 1914 if he was given "all authority" in 33 CE?”

I did not observe a clear and definitive answer from you regarding this question posed by Checkpoint.


Did you not see the answer posted below(see link)?

If Jesus received "all authority" in 33 CE, how can it be said he didn't start ruling until 1914?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p829355



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #750

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:17 am You also claim that God established his governing “kingdom” in 1914.

Is this kingdom ruled by the “Lord of lords and King of kings
ANSWER: Yes. We Jehovahs Witnesses believe this refers to none other than the Lord Jesus himself.

Image
REVELATION 19:11-16 - NWT

I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word+ of God. ...On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
For more TITLES that reflect Jesus role in Gods purpose see LINK here
viewtopic.php?p=1015344#p1015344
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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