The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #751

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:17 am You indicate the there are also 144,000 co-rulers or administrators assisting in the administration of his kingdom.

No I did not.. I have never refered to Jesus co-rulers as "administrators " they are KINGS and not merely the means by which it is ensured that the wishes of king are correctly carried out. These co-rulers are not equal to Jesus of course but cannot be rightly called "administrators" while in their heavenly role

  • The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:1 are the kings mentioned at Rev 20:6.
  • The 144,000 + 1 (Jesus) = God's kingdom government that will rule from heaven over this our planet earth.



Could it be you misunderstood my post below?
viewtopic.php?p=1005598#p1005598
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #752

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JESUS &144,000 RULERS = GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT


Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:17 am
You claim this kingdom was started in 1914 and how many of these 144,000 have been selected during this period of well over 100 years?
I do not know, that is well outside of my jurisdiction. Indeed Jesus indicated such matters laid firmly in the hands of JEHOVAH, the Father. Of course we can speculate (for example using the number of individuals that partake of the emblems during the annual memorial of Christ's death, but that is an imperfect barometer at best). At the end of the day I am content that if God hasn't provided us with such specific information it is not something we need to know for salvation.
MATTHEW 20:23

He [Jesus] said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
That said for many decades now, the majority of true Christians on earth claim not to be of that number and given how close we are to the time when all Christ's brothers will need to be at his side to fight the final battle of Armageddon, it is not unreasonable to assume that most of them are already in heaven. No one on earth can say more than that.



JW



FURTHER READING: Who goes to heaven?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/





NUMBER
Where do Jehovahs Witnesses get the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p890333

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses take the number 144,000 to be literal but not other features of this group mentioned in Rev 14:1?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p825066

Does the idea of a fixed number of people doing to heaven support the teaching of predetermination?
viewtopic.php?p=1040335#p1040335

How can millions be "saved" if only 144,000 individuals go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846597

IDENTITY

Who has the authority to choose the 144,000 for the office of rulership?
viewtopic.php?p=1046419#p1046419

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only biological males will go to heaven?
viewtopic.php?p=1056049#p1056049

Who are the tribes of ISRAEL referred to in Revelation?
viewtopic.php?p=1023147#p1023147

How are the 144,000 described elsewhere in scripture?
viewtopic.php?p=1021558#p1021558
(Onewithim)
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

LOCATION

Why conclude the 144,000 are pictured in heaven when the verse does not explicitly state this to be the case?
viewtopic.php?p=1044585#p1044585

How will the 144,000 rule over the earth without literally being on it?
viewtopic.php?p=1005598#p1005598

Do the 24 elders of Revelation rule ON or OVER the earth?
viewtopic.php?p=1023412#p1023412

In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

Will Jesus travel back and forth between heaven and earth during the millenium?
viewtopic.php?p=1051377#p1051377

In what sense will God "dwell" (tent) with humans?
viewtopic.php?p=1060794#p1060794
FUNCTION

HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585

Can the Kingdom really be compared structurally to a real government?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p883759

Does God have a heavenly organisation ?
viewtopic.php?p=1023112#p1023112
SUBJECTS

Who are the 144,000 To rule over?
viewtopic.php?p=1055054#p1055054

Does the bible support the idea of two different groups of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1022933#p1022933

SELECTION

When did Jesus choose his co-rulers?
viewtopic.php?p=1046420#p1046420

Why do most Jehovah's Witnesses not eat the bread or drink the wine at their memorial commemoration?
viewtopic.php?p=961920#p961920

Does the SEALING of Revelation 7:4 refer to the 144,000?
viewtopic.php?p=846594#p846594

To what does the final "sealing" refer mentioned in the book if Revelation?
viewtopic.php?p=1023143#p1023143

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:09 pm, edited 29 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Checkpoint
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #753

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:02 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:52 pm
From this post to you now, whether or not those not called to be spirit-anointed or born again, consider themselves to be included in any or all of the following:
This same group (144,000) refered to in other ways in scripture depending on what aspect of their role /relationship is being highlighted

The bride of Christ
The new Jerusalem
Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
The little flock
(spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
Israel of God - Gal 6:16


No. Those are all terms that describe those that will eventually rule with Christ in heaven.

JW
What you are saying, it appears, is that you, along with nearly all other present JWs, are NOT, (or will not become) part of:

* spirit-anointed
* born again
* The bride of Christ
* The new Jerusalem
* Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
* The little flock
* (spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
* Israel of God - Gal 6:16

If this be so, how is it you are, nevertheless, Christians?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #754

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmIf this be so, how is it you are, nevertheless, Christians?
Biblically a Christian is a follower of Christ, meaning someone that obeys the commands of Jesus and lives according to the model he left for us. Thus one doesn't need to be going to heaven to rule as a king to be Christian. It is unbiblical to believe God a has to offer all his servants the same rewards and privileges, God rewards Christians as he sees fit according to His own will and purpose.




JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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tam
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #755

Post by tam »

Peace to you both,

I don't mean to interrupt, so I will just put this out there:


Christians are not just followers of Christ.

Disciples (of Christ) are followers of Christ.

Christians are disciples (of Christ), but Christians are more than that as well.


Acts 11:26 might help some get a sense of a difference:

After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.



These ones were already disciples (followers of Christ), and then also divinely called Christian.

**

Christians are disciples (of Christ) who are anointed with holy spirit (which confirms their having been chosen). This is also the baptism that Christ performs; the baptism of holy spirit (the water of Life, which Christ gives).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #756

Post by onewithhim »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 am
Checkpoint wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmIf this be so, how is it you are, nevertheless, Christians?
Biblically a Christian is a follower of Christ, meaning someone that obeys the commands of Jesus and lives according to the model he left for us. Thus one doesn't need to be going to heaven to rule as a king to be Christian. It is unbiblical to believe God a has to offer all his servants the same rewards and privileges, God rewards Christians as he sees fit according to His own will and purpose.




JW
Yes, and no Christian is "more godly" than any other, or, "a better Christian." The Christians who have the earthly hope are not sub-standard Christians, so to speak. We have no desire to go to heaven. We feel it is a privilege to be here on this beautiful planet to enjoy it forever. We feel that we got almost the "better end of the deal." Those in heaven are working hard to guide us on Earth. The results of their labor are US and our successes down here. We down here get to enjoy all the results of our hard work, having been directed by the 144,000 and Jesus. There are no hard feelings anywhere. Those in heaven are happy to be there, and we on Earth are happy to be here.

.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #757

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 am
Checkpoint wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmIf this be so, how is it you are, nevertheless, Christians?
Biblically a Christian is a follower of Christ, meaning someone that obeys the commands of Jesus and lives according to the model he left for us. Thus one doesn't need to be going to heaven to rule as a king to be Christian. It is unbiblical to believe God a has to offer all his servants the same rewards and privileges, God rewards Christians as he sees fit according to His own will and purpose.

JW
I do agree.

However, my question was referring to a number of specific biblical phrases that describe all those who are followers and disciples of Christ.

They are not rewards or privileges, but are our present salvation reality in Christ Jesus.

That what you have posted is the JW position, just boggles my mind!

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #758

Post by JehovahsWitness »

* spirit-anointed
* born again
* The bride of Christ
* The new Jerusalem
* Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
* The little flock
* (spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
* Israel of God - Gal 6:16
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:21 am
However, my question was referring to a number of specific biblical phrasesthat describe all[*] those who are followers and disciples of Christ.
Emphasis MINE
[ * ]Feel free to offer biblical rationale to support this if you so wish.


That is your opinion, I disagree with it. Nowhere in scripture does it indicate that these appellations must apply to ALL who follow Christ acceptably. Since I disagree with your premise*, I am obviously going to disagree with any conclusion built thereon. Still, thanks for sharing.



Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:21 am They are not rewards or privileges, but are our present salvation reality in Christ Jesus.
I cannot comment on this as I do not know what a "present salvation reality" means. Perhaps you could rephrase?



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #759

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:21 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 am
Checkpoint wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmIf this be so, how is it you are, nevertheless, Christians?
Biblically a Christian is a follower of Christ, meaning someone that obeys the commands of Jesus and lives according to the model he left for us. Thus one doesn't need to be going to heaven to rule as a king to be Christian. It is unbiblical to believe God a has to offer all his servants the same rewards and privileges, God rewards Christians as he sees fit according to His own will and purpose.

JW
I do agree.

However, my question was referring to a number of specific biblical phrases that describe all those who are followers and disciples of Christ.

They are not rewards or privileges, but are our present salvation reality in Christ Jesus.

That what you have posted is the JW position, just boggles my mind!
Could you please elaborate on just what boggles your mind? I'm trying to understand.


.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #760

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:33 am
* spirit-anointed
* born again
* The bride of Christ
* The new Jerusalem
* Christ's "brothers" - Mat 25:40
* The little flock
* (spiritual) Israel - Rom 9:6
* Israel of God - Gal 6:16
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:21 am
However, my question was referring to a number of specific biblical phrases that describe all[*] those who are followers and disciples of Christ.
Emphasis MINE
[ * ]Feel free to offer biblical rationale to support this if you so wish.


That is your opinion, I disagree with it. Nowhere in scripture does it indicate that these appellations must apply to ALL who follow Christ acceptably. Since I disagree with your premise*, I am obviously going to disagree with any conclusion built thereon. Still, thanks for sharing.
Equally, nowhere in scripture does it indicate that these appellations do not apply to ALL who follow Christ acceptably.
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:21 am They are not rewards or privileges, but are our present salvation reality in Christ Jesus.
I cannot comment on this as I do not know what a "present salvation reality" means. Perhaps you could rephrase?

JW
Yes, I could and I should do so. That phrase is not in scripture.

So I now replace that statement with this one:

They are not rewards or privileges, but are inherent aspects or descriptions that belong to anyone who is in Christ Jesus; to all he recognises as his faithful followers and disciples.

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