The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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tam
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Re: Re:

Post #141

Post by tam »

[Replying to tam in post #140]

Peace to you onewithhim.

I'm not sure what happened, but I got a notification that this had been newly quoted, and I was just responding to that.


Perhaps it was quoted elsewhere... now I will have to go looking, lol.

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Re: Re:

Post #142

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:09 pm [Replying to tam in post #140]

Peace to you onewithhim.

I'm not sure what happened, but I got a notification that this had been newly quoted, and I was just responding to that.


Perhaps it was quoted elsewhere... now I will have to go looking, lol.
Interesting.

For me, anyway.

I noticed "The 144,000"", and thought it was a new thread.

So I opened it up, only to find it was an old thread, one that I had initiated 4 years ago!

Wow!

I have no memory of it, or what I was posting back then, in my early days on this forum.

Never know what a day may bring!

Grace and peace.

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Re: Re:

Post #143

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:09 pm [Replying to tam in post #140]

Peace to you onewithhim.

I'm not sure what happened, but I got a notification that this had been newly quoted, and I was just responding to that.


Perhaps it was quoted elsewhere... now I will have to go looking, lol.
Interesting.

For me, anyway.

I noticed "The 144,000", and thought it was a new thread.

So I opened it up, only to find it was an old thread, one that I had initiated 4 years ago!

Wow!

I have no memory of it, or what I was posting back then, in my early days on this forum.

Never know what a day may bring!

Grace and peace.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #144

Post by Revelations won »

Greetings,

I have a few questions for clarification to ask of JW.

Who are the 144,000?

What nationality are they?

How are they selected?

I believe is was you who said they were sealed.?

Who will seal them and with what authority?

What does the sealing do?

Thanks,
RW

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Re: The 144,00

Post #145

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm Greetings,

I have a few questions for clarification to ask of JW.

Who are the 144,000?
  • ANSWER They are the people chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven in God's government (God's Kingdom/the kingdom of the Heavens) Rev 20:6

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm What nationality are they?
  • ANSWER Every nationality - Rev 5:9


Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm How are they selected?
  • ANSWER By means of God's holy spirit - Rom 8: 15

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm I believe is was you who said they were sealed.?
  • ANSWER Probably - Rev 7:3

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm Who will seal them ...?
  • ANSWER God

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm ... with what authority?
  • ANSWER Divine authority

Revelations won wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:46 pm What does the sealing do?
  • ANSWER The final sealing mentioned in Revrlation guarantees them their place in God's government as kings with Christ - 2 Cor 1:21, 22






JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 144,000

Post #146

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

Thank you for your reply.

The book of revelation is very specific that there will be 12,000 called from each of the tribes of Israel.

It appears that you seem to claim this to be false.

By what authority do you claim that there will not be 12,000 chosen from each of the tribes of Israel?

It appears that your answer is a very private interpretation.

It certainly cannot be an interpretation given by God to man since you claim the all revelation from god has ceased.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: The 144,000

Post #147

Post by JehovahsWitness »

ARE THE NATURAL DECENDANTS OF ABRAHAM THE REAL ISRAELITES?

MATTHEW 3:9 ESV

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
ROMANS 2: 28, 29

For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code.
GALATIANS 3:27-29

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman,+ there is neither male nor female,+ for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.
GALATIONS 6:16

As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God
JAMES 1:1

James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes that are scattered about


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The 144,00

Post #148

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #145]

I'm going to throw in a quick question for you here, JW. Well, maybe not so quick... :) It's in reference your take on the seal of Revelation 7 and the 144,000 who receive it. I'm sure you'll have an answer... :)

Paul says:
.
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit..." [Ephesians 1:13]

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." [Ephesians 4:30]
.
What Paul says here in Ephesians is intensely identified with -- the same thing as -- what John "sees" in his dream in Revelation 7. As we know, Paul -- actually God through Paul -- was addressing members of the Church at Ephesus and, by extension, all Christians across all time. It's easy to see that this is true by postulating one of the following two absurd deductions:
.
a.) Paul was only talking to Christians in that day and thus all of what he wrote is pretty much meaningless to later Christians

b.) Paul was talking only about future Christians and not to the Ephesians and other Christians of his day, thus rendering what he wrote to them in a personal letter meaningless to them
.
Both of those conclusions would be absurd.

Further, what Paul writes to the Ephesians intensely identifies with what John says in Revelation 7. John begins Revelation by saying that all who read his prophecy will be blessed, so his words are relevant to all Christians across time, so both a. and b. above would be absurdities concerning what John says in Revelation for the same reasons as they are concerning what Paul wrote to the Ephesians.

Here's the question. According to Jehovah's Witnesses, John, in his revelation at Patmos -- given to him by God -- was dreaming of precisely 144,000 individuals, and that those 144,000 individuals are the only ones actually sealed. That seems terribly inconsistent to me, because... well, it just is. The question is, how do Jehovah's Witnesses resolve that disparateness?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #149

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amAccording to Jehovah's Witnesses, John, in his revelation at Patmos -- given to him by God -- was dreaming of precisely 144,000 individuals....
No John was given visions (on the Island of Patmos) of many, many other individuals.... He saw many more than just 144,000 individuals. For example he saw a vision of YHWH (Jehovah) Himself, Jesus the Lamb, the myriade of angels... he saw fearsome beast, the Great Harlot, armies and kings chreubs and demons. So no, we do not believe that {To quote you } "John, in his revelation at Patmos [...] was dreaming of precisely 144,000 individuals"


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Romans 14:8

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Re: The 144,000

Post #150

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amAccording to Jehovah's Witnesses.... 144,000 individuals are the only ones actually sealed.
That is true.
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amThat seems terribly inconsistent to me
Why?
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 ambecause ... well, it just is.
And you think that is a good enough argument do you? "It just is" .

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amThe question is, how do Jehovah's Witnesses resolve that disparateness?
What "disparateness" are you refering to? It wasnt clear from your preamble.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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