"Memorials"?

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:06 pm

The last chapters of Ezekiel are generally regarded by Jews and Christians alike as a picture of the messianic age. From a Jewish perspective this may work, but Christian doctrine runs into a problem in chapter 45 when "the prince" makes sacrificial offerings----including sin offerings----for the people and for himself, which doesn't paint a very strong picture of a messianic age ruled by Jesus who already made the ultimate atoning sacrifice. Some apologists claim that the prince isn't Jesus and that the latter is in the background of the scenario, but that doesn't solve the problem since Jesus is supposed to have made the final sacrifice for everyone, so no further sacrifice should be necessary.

Here apologists resort to the claim that these are "memorial" sacrifices which are made to "remind" those living in the messianic age of what Jesus did. The problem with this is that the text itself gives a reason for the sacrifices, and that's not it:

"He (the prince) shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel. (Ezek. 45:17, bolding mine)

If those sacrifices are to be offered to make atonement, that means atonement hasn't been made until the sacrifices are offered. How then are they supposed to be "memorials" to some atonement already made by some sacrificial Messiah?

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:46 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:43 pm
Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:33 pmHow does symbolism "make atonement"?
I dont understand the question? Did I say symbolism makes atonement? I can't begin to decifer what that even means.

Didn't you say that you interpret Ezekiel's vision as symbolic? The text says that sacrifices, including animal sacrifices (sin offerings), are to be made in this new temple "to make atonement for the house of Israel". Why? It says that people will still go around sinning accidentally and need to have bull blood sprinkled around for them (45:18-20). The instructions go into a lot of detail for something that's just "symbolic". Christians like to say that everything in the "Old Testament" points to Jesus, but I don't see all this talk of resumed animal sacrifice for sin pointing to him.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:47 am

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:46 pmThe instructions go into a lot of detail for something that's just "symbolic".

Are you suggesting that symbolic language cannot be detailed? Ezekiel had some of the most details visions in the bible outside of the book of Revelation.

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:46 pm... but I don't see all this talk of resumed animal sacrifice for sin pointing to him.

"Him" Jesus? Well, as you yourself said, most Christians believe all ordained animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus' sacrifice. *I* don't believe the sacrifices in Ezekiel point to "resummed animal sacrifices" for Christians. The vision would of course have been encouraging for the exiled Israelites as it signaled they (the Jews) would one day resume worship in a temple (which is what happened) but it's fulfillment as I said was to be 20th century and beyond.

JW

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:31 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:47 amThe vision would of course have been encouraging for the exiled Israelites as it signaled they (the Jews) would one day resume worship in a temple (which is what happened) but it's fulfillment as I said was to be 20th century and beyond.

Can you cite anything other than the Watchtower as evidence of that?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:17 am

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:31 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:47 amThe vision would of course have been encouraging for the exiled Israelites as it signaled they (the Jews) would one day resume worship in a temple (which is what happened) but it's fulfillment as I said was to be 20th century and beyond.
Can you cite anything other than the Watchtower as evidence of that?

I already did, here are the LINKS
viewtopic.php?p=1023959#p1023959
viewtopic.php?p=1023954#p1023954

Can you present and counterarguments you think I have not considered?

JW

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What is evidence?
viewtopic.php?p=942218#p942218

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:30 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:30 am Our (Jehovah's Witness) interpretation of Ezekiel's vision of a restoration temple and its land is a description of Gods (Jehovah's) standards for worship since 1919 extending through to the end of the millenium. The chieftan (the prince) represent earthly adimistrators that care for worshippers.

JW

Yes, that just shows how desperate an institution needs to be to attempt to make sense of an eclectic fiction.
Everything is an exception to the rules, if not the rules then the scripture.

1213 · Post by **1213** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:51 am

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:06 pm The last chapters of Ezekiel are generally regarded by Jews and Christians alike as a picture of the messianic age. ...
"He (the prince) shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel. (Ezek. 45:17, bolding mine)...

Do you know why it is regarded as Messianic age? Is there something in the scripture that says so?

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:26 pm

1213 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:51 am
Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:06 pm The last chapters of Ezekiel are generally regarded by Jews and Christians alike as a picture of the messianic age. ...
"He (the prince) shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel. (Ezek. 45:17, bolding mine)...
Do you know why it is regarded as Messianic age? Is there something in the scripture that says so?

"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will also walk in my judgements and observe my statutes, and do them.......The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." (Ezekiel 37:24, 28)

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:17 am
Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:31 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:47 amThe vision would of course have been encouraging for the exiled Israelites as it signaled they (the Jews) would one day resume worship in a temple (which is what happened) but it's fulfillment as I said was to be 20th century and beyond.
Can you cite anything other than the Watchtower as evidence of that?
I already did, here are the LINKS
viewtopic.php?p=1023959#p1023959
viewtopic.php?p=1023954#p1023954

Can you present and counterarguments you think I have not considered?

JW

RELATED POSTS

What is evidence?
viewtopic.php?p=942218#p942218

One post uses the example of the American eagle as a symbol, but the text in Ezekiel isn't just a visual illustration; it includes a set of instructions for specific things to be done. Some of those things are the sacrifice of bulls and goats as sin offerings, which in no way invites a Christian interpretation.

I'm still not clear on 1919. Wasn't there also supposed to be something special about 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975 which those who weren't "worthy" didn't notice? How does one distinguish between not being "worthy" to understand something and just concluding that there's no evidence that anything happened?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:00 am

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm ...the text in Ezekiel isn't just a visual illustration; it includes a set of instructions for specific things to be done. Some of those things are the sacrifice of bulls and goats as sin offerings, which in no way invites a Christian interpretation.

Why not? The Apostle Paul just just that. He gives a detailed explanation of how the entire temple based system ( including its features of sacrificing and various ceremonies) was symbolic of a spiritual reality ( See Hebrews Chapter 8). When talking, (as the bible offer does) of "types and antitypes", anything and anyone can be used to represent something entirely different whether future physical events , abstract ideas or spiritual realities.

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