The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #889]

Checkpoint wrote:

Checkpoint is unclear and/or inconsistent?

Well now, just for starters, look again at my post 881.

The passage cited has within it my position on what happens, and its results, when Jesus returns.

Not before then, and not at some later time. But at the last trumpet, on the last day.

Not just the end of all human governments, but the end of all who are not believers, including Satan and his followers.

That is what is clearly stated in the sheep and goats Judgment parable, and is the obvious result of what is portrayed near the end of Revelation 11.

Is that clear and specific enough for you two, and is it unequivocal enough for both of you?

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated. My questions are as follows...


....when Jesus RETURNS

a) does he destroy **all** wicked people?
b) And what does Jesus do with Satan and the demons when he returns?

JW

My answers are:

a) Yes.
b) According to Scripture, this:

Matthew 25:41:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Romans 16:20:
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Revelation 20:10:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Th

Matt.25:41 is what happens at Armageddon. Romans 16:20 and Revelation 20:10 picture what happens at the end of the Millennial Reign. Notice that before the Paradise Earth, when Armageddon strikes, the Devil is merely restrained in the abyss. His head is not "crushed" (he is not killed) until AFTER the thousand years. You have mixed the two events up together. It would bear further scrutinizing of the verses.

[Checkpoint]

One return, and one day of judgment, leading directly into one new heaven and new earth, in which is only righteousness.

Is this one return and the one day of jugement the same occassion when he JESUS RETURNS: destroys the goats / destroys ALL human govenments / completely destoys Satan and the demons?

... not really.

Ok. So where does the one return and the one day of jugement fit in to what you have confirmed so far?

[ we are presently in the [1] LAST DAYS. Satan's world exists under his rule and wicked people around: people are suffering. ]===> [2] JESUS RETURNS: destroys the goats / destroys ALL human govenments / destroys ALL wicked people leaving none / completely destoys Satan and the demons -----> [3] [JESUS' PEACEFUL RULE ]

(a) before all the above
(b) after all the abive
(c) inside all the above


.... if (c) perhaps you would like to say where ie (and this is just an example of course....)


For example: The "the one return and the one day of jugement" happens before the RULE OF PEACE that {to quote you} "lasts forever" but after the JESUS RETURNS and destroys the goats / all the wicked people/destroys ALL human govenments / completely destoys Satan and the demons.

That's just an example, you can of course place "the one return and the one day of jugement" anywhere you like in the timeline.

This peaceful rule will last forever. Revelation 11:15; 22:3-5.

Sorry, but I think we will get no further in this exchange and, once again, have to agree to disagree.

What you call "Jesus peaceful rule" has no part in my "timeline", other than my own adaption/application of it in the quote above.

[JehovahsWitness]

Sorry, but I think we will get no further in this exchange and, once again, have to agree to disagree.

I think that's very wise of you, especially as you would have had to explain how in your timeline Satan could be abyssed for 1000 years and subseqently released after having been destroyed in the lake of fire. And who would be judged after Jesus has ALREADY judged and destroyed every wicked person on earth along with the demons and all worldly governments. Indeed I had a sneaking suspicion you would see the gapping holes in your interpretation and bow out gracefully before you fell into one!

Your timeline doesnt stand up to scrutiny because it, I suspect, is the first time you've actually been forced to make one.



JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #885]

Yes, Armageddon is to rid the earth of evil. All wicked people and the Devil are gone---the wicked people to oblivion and the Devil to thousand-year restraint. This gives people time to forever make up their minds whether or not they want to serve and obey Jehovah as their Sovereign. This includes all of the people who died before Jesus came on the scene, and will need instruction as to the truth of matters. We will be teaching them as they are resurrected into Paradise (the earth). People will be unencumbered by any evil during this time. Then, when the thousand years is up every person will be given the chance to take their side with Jehovah and Jesus forever. Some may choose not to. That is when the final obliteration comes, when Satan is destroyed and also those who do not want to serve Jehovah. Isn't that what we see in Revelation 20?

Yes, it is what "we(JWs)" see in Revelation 20.

It is not what I see there, because much of what you say is not even hinted at in Revelation 20.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #901]

Matthew 25:41:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Romans 16:20:
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Revelation 20:10:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matt.25:41 is what happens at Armageddon. Romans 16:20 and Revelation 20:10 picture what happens at the end of the Millennial Reign. Notice that before the Paradise Earth, when Armageddon strikes, the Devil is merely restrained in the abyss. His head is not "crushed" (he is not killed) until AFTER the thousand years. You have mixed the two events up together. It would bear further scrutinizing of the verses.

Matthew 25:41 is what occurs on the last day of the old order.

It pictures, not the devil restrained, but the devil killed in eternal fire, the same as in Revelation 20:10.
l
That is, at the Judgment at the return of Jesus, at the last trump.

Yes, this is what happens after the thousand years.

One return, one resurrection, one Judgment.

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 25:41 is what occurs on the last day of the old order.

Agreed.

It pictures, not the devil restrained, but the devil killed in eternal fire, the same as in Revelation 20:10.

Well, it pictures the devil relegated to -- sent to dwell eternally in -- the eternal fire, which is figurative. And unbelievers follow him therein.

That is, at the Judgment at the return of Jesus, at the last trump.

Agreed.

Yes, this is what happens after the thousand years.

Agreed, and per your earlier comment, that thousand years is also figurative, noting the fullness and completeness of God's time where He will have brought all the Gentiles into Israel and subsequently removed the partial hardening that is on Israel, which He is somewhere in the process of doing right now, right?

One return, one resurrection, one Judgment.

Absolutely.

Grace and peace to all.

[onewithhim]

There hasn't been an explanation of how Satan could be destroyed at Jesus' coming at Armageddon and then allowed to come out of the abyss after the thousand years.

[Checkpoint]

There hasn't been an explanation of how Satan could be destroyed at Jesus' coming at Armageddon and then allowed to come out of the abyss after the thousand years.

Well, it has, but it is unacceptable to JWs (and to most Evangelicals).

The answer is that, as Pinseeker pointed out, the 1000 years is figurative, just as most of Revelation is.

Not only that, although chapter 20 follows chapter 19, it does not follow it in chronological order.

This is not the first, and not the only, chronological variation found in Revelation.

The most obvious and notable one is chapters 11 and 12, which are clearly not in chronological order.

This chronological aspect is the essential ingredient needed to be able to grasp what Revelation 20 is actually about, including what is meant by what is said there about Satan.

We can discuss this if you wish to.

[tam]

Peace to you all,

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #908]

The problem (or at least one problem) with the idea that thousand years is right now, is that the Adversary is not currently sealed and locked in the Abyss, which he is supposed to be before the start of the thousand years:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him INTO THE ABYSS, and LOCKED and SEALED it over him, to keep him from deceiving THE NATIONS anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.. Rev 20:1-3

Instead of being bound and sealed and locked in the abyss, the Adversary is roaming about, deceiving the nations (including about the gospel; in order to prevent people from coming to Christ and so also to LIFE):

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8



We are not in the thousand years as of yet.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

...the 1000 years is figurative, just as most of Revelation is.

Three times the bible mentions this period of 1000 years, what rationale has been presented to conclude ti is figurative. What is it figurative of ?


EVENTS LINKED WITH THE MILLENIUM

- The restriction ( but not the destruction) and subbsequent releasing of Satan.
- two different resurrections
- The ruling of Jesus with a number of co-rulers for this same period

Even if the 1000 year period is figurative, unless we are going include the promise to rule in heaven, the resurrection of the dead, Satan the Devil and indeed Jesus himself, do not exist but are simply figurative of something else, we still have to place the events in a timeline your version of which allows no place for.

REVELATION 20:4, 5

And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead+ did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.