You MUST be born again

[Checkpoint]

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?

[William]

Rather than count the disagreements, count the things to which you all agree with and let us examine those...

Things which count the most in this subforum are those referenced in the Bible:

Yes - it is to those things which I am referring...Rather than count the disagreements regarding the things which count the most in this forum, count the things to which you all agree with and let us examine those

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority.

If a trillion people claim to be born again of the Spirit, then those trillion people should be able to move as the wind as the Bible states:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Today of course, we have to take into account that we now can and do know where the wind blows, where it came from and where it went. Such knowledge trumps old knowledge, no matter whence it cometh and whither it goeth - otherwise we remain stuck in a control loop of our own making.

Now obviously too, you are pointing out the fact that with so many Christians on this planet, IF they were born again, THEN the world would surely feel the wind of that...and yet...[listens intently] nary a sound of the breath of a breeze...but I do feel it...like a soft feather lulling me....

[myth-one.com]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Today of course, we have to take into account that we now can and do know where the wind blows, where it came from and where it went. Such knowledge trumps old knowledge, no matter whence it cometh and whither it goeth - otherwise we remain stuck in a control loop of our own making.

Now obviously too, you are pointing out the fact that with so many Christians on this planet, IF they were born again, THEN the world would surely feel the wind of that...and yet...[listens intently] nary a sound of the breath of a breeze...but I do feel it...like a soft feather lulling me....

Can you present some evidence that humans can move as the wind?

Thanks.

[William]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Today of course, we have to take into account that we now can and do know where the wind blows, where it came from and where it went. Such knowledge trumps old knowledge, no matter whence it cometh and whither it goeth - otherwise we remain stuck in a control loop of our own making.

Now obviously too, you are pointing out the fact that with so many Christians on this planet, IF they were born again, THEN the world would surely feel the wind of that...and yet...[listens intently] nary a sound of the breath of a breeze...but I do feel it...like a soft feather lulling me....

Can you present some evidence that humans can move as the wind?

Thanks.

I am not the one who made the claim, Jesus was.

But still, in today's day and age I feel the question you ask appears ridiculous. The evidence is as plane as the planet we exist upon.

The wind shape rock
The wind makes music
The wind destroys
The wind creates

all these things humans can do and if Christians are indeed humans, then yes, they can do the same...[listens intently]

[myth-one.com]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Can you present some evidence that humans can move as the wind?

I am not the one who made the claim, Jesus was.

No, Jesus claimed that every human born of the Spirit can move as the wind -- not all humans.

But still, in today's day and age I feel the question you ask appears ridiculous. The evidence is as plain as the planet we exist upon.

The wind shape rock
The wind makes music
The wind destroys
The wind creates

all these things humans can do and if Christians are indeed humans, then yes, they can do the same...[listens intently]

Yes, humans can do all those things.

But can they do them as the wind does?

Unseen.

[William]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Can you present some evidence that humans can move as the wind?

I am not the one who made the claim, Jesus was.

No, Jesus claimed that every human born of the Spirit can move as the wind -- not all humans.

So was Jesus speaking with the idea that many could/should/would do this or was he referring to just a few?

But still, in today's day and age I feel the question you ask appears ridiculous. The evidence is as plain as the planet we exist upon.

The wind shape rock
The wind makes music
The wind destroys
The wind creates

all these things humans can do and if Christians are indeed humans, then yes, they can do the same...[listens intently]

Yes, humans can do all those things.

But can they do them as the wind does?

Unseen.

The wind is not unseen. Just as it is not unfelt.

One sees the wind in what the wind can do. And yes, there are things humans can do which are unseen

[myth-one.com]

So was Jesus speaking with the idea that many could/should/would do this or was he referring to just a few?

Here it is again:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

The wind is not unseen.

Yes it is.

One sees the wind in what the wind can do.

No.

One sees what the wind can do, when one sees what the wind can do.

[William]

So was Jesus speaking with the idea that many could/should/would do this or was he referring to just a few?

Here it is again:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

The wind is not unseen.

Yes it is.

One sees the wind in what the wind can do.

No.

One sees what the wind can do, when one sees what the wind can do.

Semantics. Potatoes potatoes - what does it all mean though Christian? That those few born agains cannot be seen to be doing anything..."what is your point?" is the question...

[myth-one.com]

..."what is your point?" is the question...

There is a natural body.

And there is a spiritual body.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Man is born of the flesh.

But flesh cannot inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God.

Therefore, man must be born a second time of the Spirit to inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ye must be born again.

===========================================

But at present, no man has yet been born again of the Spirit.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Humans born again of the Spirit no longer have physical bodies which can die.

They have everlasting spiritual bodies which can move as the wind.

[William]

..."what is your point?" is the question...

There is a natural body.

And there is a spiritual body.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Man is born of the flesh.

But flesh cannot inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God.

Therefore, man must be born a second time of the Spirit to inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ye must be born again.

===========================================

But at present, no man has yet been born again of the Spirit.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Humans born again of the Spirit no longer have physical bodies which can die.

They have everlasting spiritual bodies which can move as the wind.

Being 'born again' is to 'become a ghost'?

But at present, no man has yet been born again of the Spirit.

Why would you claim that? What if - as is the case with me, I have experienced leaving the physical body and floating under the night sky? By your interpretation this would have to equate as at least subjective evidence that I am born again.
It may not be something you have experienced, but why claim that because you haven't experienced such, that "no man has yet been born again of the Spirit"

[Checkpoint]

Man in general still does not understand the process of being born again!

It all makes sense to you, but not to me and most others.

u]Jesus said[/u]: No man can enter into the kingdom of God unless he is born again of the Spirit.

Jesus said: That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus said: Every one born of the Spirit can move as the wind.

But no man can move as the wind.

Therefore, no man has ever been born again of the Spirit.

Jesus did not say anyone born of the Spirit "can move as the wind".

This is what he said:


’ 8

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

That was his conclusion to the following that he had been telling Nicodemus:

5 Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.

Jesus is talking in the present tense. About what a believer experiences here and now, in this life.

Nicodemus did not understand, saying, "How can this be?".

You too do not understand, but think you do, and say, "Therefore, no man has ever been born again of the Spirit."

So, what is needed to gain spiritual understanding, myth-one.com?