Who Sinned First?

[William]

Adam or Eve?

[PinSeeker]

Yeah - we don't need to devolve into semantics. Certainly if a husband is present and can help correct his wife's misinformation but doesn't... Eve obviously thought that the god had commanded not to touch the fruit - Adam could have corrected her then but allowed his wife to believe that this is what the god had commanded.

It's not "semantics" at all. Words are important and they convey correct or incorrect meanings and understandings. Maybe your understanding was correct, but your words reflected something quite incorrect, and thus my correction. Not that I'm "correcting you," but it needed to be said. Having said that, though, your understanding was obviously incorrect and still is. No, I'm sure Eve knew very well that God had commanded both her and Adam not to partake of the fruit and then was deceived by Satan -- who is the Deceiver -- who "clarified" (lied, actually) about what God actually meant in commanding what He had commanded. Eve fell victim to this deception. Adam could have corrected Satan for the sake of Eve and refuted Satan's lie, but did not, thereby standing idly by while Eve succumbed to this deception -- and even participated in it.

Adam remaining silent contributed directly to Eve being deceived.

No, the deception inflicted by Satan had already occurred, and Adam, as I said above, allowed the Satan's deception to have its full effect -- and even participated in it instead of stopping it. He deliberately disobeyed God, and he failed in his responsibility to God as His creation and Eve as her husband. Words are very, very important.

"the god"... <chuckles> <shaking my head> Sigh.

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

Yeah - we don't need to devolve into semantics. Certainly if a husband is present and can help correct his wife's misinformation but doesn't... Eve obviously thought that the god had commanded not to touch the fruit - Adam could have corrected her then but allowed his wife to believe that this is what the god had commanded.

It's not "semantics" at all. Words are important and they convey correct or incorrect meanings and understandings. Maybe your understanding was correct, but your words reflected something quite incorrect, and thus my correction. Not that I'm "correcting you," but it needed to be said. Having said that, though, your understanding was obviously incorrect and still is. No, I'm sure Eve knew very well that God had commanded both her and Adam not to partake of the fruit and then was deceived by Satan -- who is the Deceiver -- who "clarified" (lied, actually) about what God actually meant in commanding what He had commanded. Eve fell victim to this deception. Adam could have corrected Satan for the sake of Eve and refuted Satan's lie, but did not, thereby standing idly by while Eve succumbed to this deception -- and even participated in it.

Adam remaining silent contributed directly to Eve being deceived.

No, the deception inflicted by Satan had already occurred, and Adam, as I said above, allowed the Satan's deception to have its full effect -- and even participated in it instead of stopping it. He deliberately disobeyed God, and he failed in his responsibility to God as His creation and Eve as her husband. Words are very, very important.

"the god"... <chuckles> <shaking my head> Sigh.

Grace and peace to you.

According to the the script you are ignoring that the god of the mythology only said to Adam not to eat the fruit. THEREFORE the command of the god was added to.
Even assuming that it was Eve who added to the gods command [and there is reason to think it was more likely Adam instructed Eve regarding the command - again - according to the script] Adan failed to correct her and this directly relates to how the Serpent cunningly used Adam's silence and Eve's misinformation to further present his argument and talk Eve into touching the forbidden fruit.
Once Eve touched the fruit and no harm came to her,it was a score for the Serpent and Eve now covinced,then bit into it,which was the actual command the god had said not to do.
Then Eve passed the friut to Adam who - since no harm had befallen his wife - had no problem taking a bite himself.

[PinSeeker]

According to the the script you are ignoring that the god of the mythology only said to Adam not to eat the fruit. THEREFORE the command of the god was added to.

Nope. Whether Eve was with her husband at the time the command was issued is irrelevant. I think the text clearly infers, at least that she was, but even if one postulates that Eve was not there, one of Adam's duties as her husband would be to inform his wife of the command God had given. This is true all through the Bible, that the men, as spiritual heads of their households, are commanded and are then obligated to cascade God's commands through their entire household. At any rate, either way you want to go with it, Eve knew.

Even assuming that it was Eve who added to the gods command [and there is reason to think it was more likely Adam instructed Eve regarding the command - again - according to the script] Adan failed to correct her and this directly relates to how the Serpent cunningly used Adam's silence and Eve's misinformation to further present his argument and talk Eve into touching the forbidden fruit.

Nah, that's reading into the text, and adding an element to it that's not there. Adam and Eve both knew of the command; that's clearly the force of the text. Satan deceived Eve. Adam could have corrected Eve and kept her, um, "straight," but did not. He failed in his responsibility to God (to obey Him and love Him with all his heart, mind, soul and strength) and his responsibility to the wife God had given him (to love her and to give himself up for her).

Once Eve touched the fruit and no harm came to her,it was a score for the Serpent and Eve now covinced,then bit into it,which was the actual command the god had said not to do. Then Eve passed the friut to Adam who - since no harm had befallen his wife - had no problem taking a bite himself.

LOL! Well now you're just shooting off and grasping at straws. Read it how you want, man.

By the way, love that picture of Adam and Eve in Eden in your OP. They were darn good lookin,' weren't they? LOL!!!

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

According to the the script you are ignoring that the god of the mythology only said to Adam not to eat the fruit. THEREFORE the command of the god was added to.

Nope.

You are incorrect. The god did not instruct the pair "not to touch the fruit". That was added.

Whether Eve was with her husband at the time the command was issued is irrelevant.

It is relevant.

I think the text clearly infers, at least that she was,

Chronologically, [the way that follows the order in which events or records occurred.] the script is clear that the god instructed Adam before the god created Eve.

but even if one postulates that Eve was not there, one of Adam's duties as her husband would be to inform his wife of the command God had given.

Correct.

This is true all through the Bible, that the men, as spiritual heads of their households, are commanded and are then obligated to cascade God's commands through their entire household. At any rate, either way you want to go with it, Eve knew.

But "how did Eve come to know?" is an important question to answer. One should not skip over that in ones haste to become the gods favorite. [or for any other reason]
If Adam told her not to touch the fruit then Adam is the one who added to the gods command.
So not only is it clear that Adam was the first to sin, but also, if adding to the words of the god are counted as sin, then we are that much nearer to knowing what the first sin was that Adam committed first.

Certainly he dragged his wife into his little agenda, but "what first motivated him to act like a drooling, knuckle-dragging meat sack, instead of the Man the god had created?" - is a good question. Not one specifically asked by this thread, but certainly a question which naturally rolls off of the answer to the question this thread is focused upon.

Even assuming that it was Eve who added to the gods command [and there is reason to think it was more likely Adam instructed Eve regarding the command - again - according to the script] Adam failed to correct her and this directly relates to how the Serpent cunningly used Adam's silence and Eve's misinformation to further present his argument and talk Eve into touching the forbidden fruit.

Nah, that's reading into the text, and adding an element to it that's not there.

As we both agree, the element is there in the later command for men to love their wives and teach them truthfully. To say the clues offered in the script is 'reading into the text' is a lazy argument at best.

Adam and Eve both knew of the command; that's clearly the force of the text.

That is certainly what the author appears to want to imply. One has to remember that the author is compiling a story which he heard from a more ancient source - stories around campfires. Perhaps by then the authors own understanding was bias against Women because the author believed the stories circulating were true. That it was the Woman's sin which brought suffering into the world of Men.

Satan deceived Eve.

The Serpent is the scrape goat for Men who want to point the finger at Eve. Adam is the sinner against Eve. The Serpent just took advantage of the opportunity Adam gave to tempt Eve. Adam could have prevented Eve from being deceived … The script say's that he stood by and simply watched.

Adam could have corrected Eve and kept her, um, "straight," but did not. He failed in his responsibility to God (to obey Him and love Him with all his heart, mind, soul and strength) and his responsibility to the wife God had given him (to love her and to give himself up for her).

We agree. We can also surmise that Adam did not do that which he could have done, because he had already sinned. He had another agenda...he had a plan...

Once Eve touched the fruit and no harm came to her,it was a score for the Serpent and Eve now covinced,then bit into it,which was the actual command the god had said not to do. Then Eve passed the friut to Adam who - since no harm had befallen his wife - had no problem taking a bite himself.

LOL! Well now you're just shooting off and grasping at straws. Read it how you want, man.

Generally [in debate] when an individual resorts to use words of insult [dismissiveness is insult] against the opposing individual, it is regarded as [at least] a subconscious act, signaling defeat. I accept your surrender unless you wish to modify your approach and tone it down a notch or two.

By the way, love that picture of Adam and Eve in Eden in your OP. They were darn good lookin,' weren't they? LOL!!!

Who knows? I just used an image I considered the standard type that Christians generally imagine Adam and Eve to be like, with the background setting but without the traditional snake in the tree. After all, the thread is exploring the question who sinned first Adam or Eve, and the devil would just be a distraction...

[PinSeeker]

You are incorrect.

Nope.

The god did not instruct the pair "not to touch the fruit". That was added.

Yeah, I agree. Where do you think it was added? The text is very clear: “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” I mean, to eat something you also have to necessarily touch it... Come on, William, didn't your mommy ever tell you, "Don't you touch those cookies before dinner!"?

Whether Eve was with her husband at the time the command was issued is irrelevant.

It is relevant.

Nope, not really. Eve was not present when Adam received the command; she hadn't been made yet. Right after the command was given (as documented in Genesis 2:15-17), and after He had brought all the animals into being, God brought Eve into being and gave her to Adam. But again, Adam was the spiritual head of his household and bore the responsibility -- to God and to her -- to tell her of God's commands and keep himself and her knowledgeable of and in accordance with them. And he fulfilled that responsibility, at least up to the point of Satan's attack. That's when he failed miserably.

I think the text clearly infers, at least that she was,

Chronologically, [the way that follows the order in which events or records occurred.] the script is clear that the god instructed Adam before the god created Eve.

Sure. See above.

but even if one postulates that Eve was not there, one of Adam's duties as her husband would be to inform his wife of the command God had given.

Correct.

Yes, I know it's correct. But hey, good for you!

This is true all through the Bible, that the men, as spiritual heads of their households, are commanded and are then obligated to cascade God's commands through their entire household. At any rate, either way you want to go with it, Eve knew.

But "how did Eve come to know?" is an important question to answer.

Obviously, Adam told her. She knew God's command, as evidenced by verses 2 and 3 of Genesis 3.

If Adam told her not to touch the fruit then Adam is the one who added to the gods command.

Well, to eat something, don't you first have to touch it, at least with like your tongue? LOL! This is inane. Nah, I would hold that what Eve says to Satan in Genesis 3 is a fuller picture of what God said to Adam (and Adam subsequently told Eve). This is true throughout Scripture; the fact that Jesus said things in one or two of the Gospels that other Gospel writers did not record and vice-versa does not mean that said some of those things and others He did not, but rather that He absolutely said all those things... He said everything He is quoted in Scripture as saying, no matter who did or did not write the different accounts. So yes, we can be confident that God said both what is recorded in Genesis 2 and what Eve says He said in Genesis 3. Again, God Himself is the real Author of all of Scripture, no matter who actually wrote this book or that book (in this case Moses).

So not only is it clear that Adam was the first to sin, but also, if adding to the words of the god are counted as sin, then we are that much nearer to knowing what the first sin was that Adam committed first.

"Hmmmmmmm." LOL! See above.

Certainly he dragged his wife into his little agenda, but "what first motivated him to act like a drooling, knuckle-dragging meat sack, instead of the Man the god had created?" - is a good question. Not one specifically asked by this thread, but certainly a question which naturally rolls off of the answer to the question this thread is focused upon...

Let me finish that last sentence for you: "...to someone totally off the reservation."

To say the clues offered in the script is 'reading into the text' is a lazy argument at best.

No, it's just sober-mindedness, faithfulness to God's Word, and the refusal to "get creative" with it because of itching ears that lead one to wandering off into myths, as Paul puts it in 2 Timothy 4:3-5.

One has to remember that the author is compiling a story which he heard from a more ancient source - stories around campfires.

Actually no, all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). So, yes, men -- in the case of Genesis through Dueteronomy, Moses -- different parts of the Bible, but God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, is the ultimate Author, using these men to relate His Word to man.

Satan deceived Eve.

The Serpent is the scrape goat for Men who want to point the finger at Eve. Adam is the sinner against Eve. The Serpent just took advantage of the opportunity Adam gave to tempt Eve. Adam could have prevented Eve from being deceived … The script say's that he stood by and simply watched.

Ugh. Well, yes, Adam sinned against Eve; I said that before. The rest of what you say here, though...

He had another agenda...he had a plan...

Yep. Don't think Adam had any kind of "plan," but like I said, his "agenda" was himself.

LOL! Well now you're just shooting off and grasping at straws. Read it how you want, man.

Generally [in debate] when an individual resorts to use words of insult [dismissiveness is insult] against the opposing individual, it is regarded as [at least] a subconscious act, signaling defeat.

That may be in some cases, but certainly not this one.

Grace and peace to you, William.

[Purple Knight]

Is it a sin to disobey someone you don't know is really better than you morally because you don't know what evil and good even are?

What evidence did Eve have that God was morally any better than the Serpent, and more worthy of being heeded?

If you add the premise that people who don't know their bum from a hole in the ground should listen and obey, that's fine, but why not listen to the Serpent?

[William]

Certainly he dragged his wife into his little agenda, but "what first motivated him to act like a drooling, knuckle-dragging meat sack, instead of the Man the god had created?" - is a good question. Not one specifically asked by this thread, but certainly a question which naturally rolls off of the answer to the question this thread is focused upon...

Let me finish that last sentence for you: "...to someone totally off the reservation."

Is it a sin to disobey someone you don't know is really better than you morally because you don't know what evil and good even are?

What evidence did Eve have that God was morally any better than the Serpent, and more worthy of being heeded?

If you add the premise that people who don't know their bum from a hole in the ground should listen and obey, that's fine, but why not listen to the Serpent?

It appears to me that the story as presented has the Serpent pricking his ears up when he hears that Eve thinks that touching the fruit is enough to get her more interested in eating it...

[Genesis - New International Version]

The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. [Adam must have therefore named the Serpent since the god tasked him with naming all the animals.]

"Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."

"So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals." [thus also the Serpent]

Thus Adam would have had contact with the Serpent and most likely even befriended it. Obviously, even that the Serpent could communicate, [and therefore form relationship] the Serpent was not a good choice for Adam...none of the animals the god had so far created, were...

"So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found."

[The serpent, despite it's ability to reason and speak, was no help to Adam in other regards.]

That is when the god had the 'idea' [it is implied] of creating A "Woman" from one of Adams ribs...[DNA I suppose.]

Meanwhile the Serpent is watching all these things unfold...formulating plans from the data...eventually picking his moment when Adam and Eve were in the vicinity of the forbidden fruit tree... and the god was busy elsewhere...

He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” [leading question - A leading question is a question which subtly prompts the respondent to answer in a particular way]

Eve answered in a particular way.

“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

It is there that the Serpent would have seen a way in which it could convince Eve to eat the fruit, if he could simply get her to touch it because the Serpent knew that touching the fruit was not part of the gods command, and she would not surely die from doing so.

“You will not certainly die,”

That is the truth. Serpent spoke the truth. Serpent didn't bother to add "if you touch the fruit" as he was interested in seeing if Eve could be tempted to eat the fruit. Serpent must have known that Adam wouldn't correct Eve otherwise it wouldn't have been so easy. Adam was the one who told Eve that she would die even if she touched the fruit...that is what Eve believed about the fruit...

Serpent spices up the ante by adding "God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." [Truth again]

Notice Serpent doesn't use the word 'touch' as it wants Eve to focus upon eating the fruit. Serpent speaks the truth

Adams silence throughout this exchange is added to Eves [and his own] desire to eat the fruit, as he is not trying to stop her, and certainly she is not doing this behind his back. His silence is therefore a sign that it might be alright to know good and evil and be like the god. Why not?
It seems reasonable...it is all the encouragement she requires...

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. "

and then;

"She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

Immediately the god suddenly can be heard in the garden [what a coincidence!] - they were ashamed of being naked in front of others and the rest as they say, is history...at least mythologically speaking...and the mythology plays out like a dramatic comedy...

“Who told you that you were naked?"

Obvious Answer: They told themselves that they were naked.

Rhetorical question: "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” [the god knew the answer to that question already.]

Adam: [blaming the god] “The woman you put here with me" and also then blaming his wife "she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” [It wasn't me! it was you and her!] [[False]]

The god plays along. The god asks Eve “What is this you have done?”

Eve: “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” [[Truth]]

The god doesn't even ask Serpent if that is the truth and just gets on with the business of cursing...

So yes - The Serpent didn't lie but did withhold saying everything. Much as the god did in regard to the properties of the Tree of Life, which the pair had been eating from, unaware that in doing so, they were extending their lives.

“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (not from eating the forbidden fruit but from being prevented from eating the tree of Life fruit.

"After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

So the biblical moral of withholding all information appears to be less like lying than adding false information to whatever information is actually available. How to lie without actually lying...

[John Bauer]

[Eve's] sin was effected by her having been deceived, which is not the case with Adam.

This point is more important than this discussion appears to recognize, particularly with reference to the OP and the relevance of that question to human sin.

Not to pick anything apart, really, but I don't really think we can say "allowing his wife to be tempted." I mean, he didn't really have anything to do with it. I think we agree on this, that maybe the better way to say that is that one of the ways Adam sinned was that he failed to correct Eve and stop Eve from succumbing to it. ... I don't think anybody can blame Adam for Eve's being deceived, really. She was deceived by Satan, and Adam could have rectified that but did not.

Given Adam's mandate expressly implied by Genesis 2:15 ("to tend [the garden] and watch over it"), I think we can say that Adam allowed his wife to be tempted—whether or not he was standing there with her as it happened (as I believe he was). If Adam had properly executed his mandate, the serpent would not have been in the garden in the first place. That is how Adam would be held accountable for her being deceived.

You and I do agree, however, that Adam could also have exposed the serpent's deception but did not, but deliberately chose instead to follow his wife into transgression.

No, the deception inflicted by Satan had already occurred ...

This presupposes that Adam was not with her at the time, but the text suggests that he was. It says that, upon listening to the serpent, the woman took of its fruit and also gave some to her husband "who was with her" (v. 6). Bible commentators have a curious aversion to accepting that Adam was standing there with her—as do you, it seems—but, if he was (as the text suggests and I believe), then William would be correct that "Adam remaining silent contributed directly to Eve being deceived."

... and Adam, as I said above, allowed the Satan's deception to have its full effect -- and even participated in it instead of stopping it. He deliberately disobeyed God, and he failed in his responsibility to God as His creation and Eve as her husband.

What you say here, though, is certainly also true.

Adam and Eve both knew of the command; that's clearly the force of the text. Satan deceived Eve. Adam could have corrected Eve and kept her, um, "straight," but did not. He failed in his responsibility to God (to obey Him and love Him with all his heart, mind, soul and strength) and his responsibility to the wife God had given him (to love her and to give himself up for her).

One hundred percent. Moreover, I don't think anybody disagrees with this.

Addendum: Please read my response to William below for further details, and please comment as needed, if you feel so inclined.

* * *

I think in general terms we agree the story presents Adam as the first to sin and that his sin was allowing his wife to be tempted by the Serpent.

One hundred percent.

Adam could have prevented Eve from being deceived. The script says that he stood by and simply watched.

Exactly.

It is not the intention of the thread to debate on whether being deceived is sinful or not. We can agree that Eve was deceived and I can agree that Eve's being deceived was the fault of Adams inactivity in being unwilling to step up to the plate and defend his wife from the Serpents deceptive temptations .

Do you agree or disagree that Adam was also culpable for failing to protect or guard the garden (Gen. 2:15), made evident by the presence of the serpent? Clearly, the deception could not have taken place if Adam had fulfilled that obligation.

I am not presenting my other arguments to those who agree that Adam was the first to sin, but to those who appear to resist that idea and believe it was Eve who was.

Okay, got it. Thanks for explaining that.

Eve obviously thought that the god had commanded not to touch the fruit ...

It is not necessary that she truly thought God had commanded this. It could be that she knew God commanded against partaking of the fruit and interpreted a prohibition against even touching it (i.e., she knew that part wasn't something God had said). As some biblical commentators have pointed out, and so have you, this was also a sin. The serpent asked, "Did God really say?" And Eve replied that God said something he did not expressly say. So, upon hearing her arrogate to herself the function of prophet by elaborating upon what God had said, the serpent saw an opening and took it.

Even assuming that it was Eve who added to the gods command ... Adam failed to correct her and this directly relates to how the Serpent cunningly used Adam's silence and Eve's misinformation to further present his argument and talk Eve into touching the forbidden fruit. Once Eve touched the fruit and no harm came to her, it was a score for the Serpent, and Eve, now covinced, then bit into it, which was the actual command the god had said not to do. Then Eve passed the friut to Adam who - since no harm had befallen his wife - had no problem taking a bite himself.

Makes sense to me.

The god did not instruct the pair "not to touch the fruit". That was added.

It certainly was.

If Adam told her not to touch the fruit then Adam is the one who added to the gods command. So not only is it clear that Adam was the first to sin, but also, if adding to the words of the god are counted as sin, then we are that much nearer to knowing what the first sin was that Adam committed first.

All of that would follow if, and only if, Adam was the one who added to God's word. The obvious problem is that there's nothing in the text to suggest he did. Adam could have told his wife precisely (and only) what God had commanded, and yet Eve took it upon herself to interpret God's command, thus arrogating to herself the function of prophet—a function she was not given. We are agreed that Adam was the first to sin, but I see no reason to believe it was him who added to God's word; the sin for which he was already guilty was profound enough as it is.

He had another agenda...he had a plan...

Again, not necessary. A simple lack of leadership sufficiently explains his silence. Nothing in the text requires a more elaborate conspiracy by Adam.

Addendum: I cannot help but notice that you capitalize "the Serpent" but leave "the god" all lower-case. That is quite telling.

* * *

Is it a sin to disobey someone you don't know is really better than you morally because you don't know what evil and good even are?

Is it a sin? In this context, that depends on (1) who that "someone" is and (2) how "morally" is being defined. In the first place, that someone is God. In the second place, it is God who defines morality. As such, it is a sin to disobey God. Moreover, to put God in the dock, as it were, on the question of morality simply begs the question—which is at once both super easy and totally invalid.

What evidence did Eve have that God was morally any better than the Serpent, and more worthy of being heeded?

Whatever that evidence was, it wasn't included in the narrative we possess so we don't know.

If you add the premise that people who don't know their bum from a hole in the ground should listen and obey, that's fine, but why not listen to the Serpent?

Because the serpent was not God. One can listen to whomever one wishes, of course, so long as God's word is the final authority to which one appeals and adheres—which neither Adam nor Eve did, as it turns out. And that continues to be the number one sin that humans commit.

[JehovahsWitness]

... I don't really think we can say "allowing his wife to be tempted." I mean, he didn't really have anything to do with it.

I have to agree. Eve wasnt a slave under 24 hour observation. She wasn't a dog to be kept on a chain and lead everywhere under her husbands strict supervision. Eve was a free moral agent able to make her own decisions as to who use talks to and why.




JW



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EVE, WOMEN, SEX And... MARRIAGE

[Purple Knight]

Is it a sin? In this context, that depends on (1) who that "someone" is and (2) how "morally" is being defined. In the first place, that someone is God. In the second place, it is God who defines morality. As such, it is a sin to disobey God. Moreover, to put God in the dock, as it were, on the question of morality simply begs the question—which is at once both super easy and totally invalid.

This is exactly what I was looking for in answer to this, as well as many, many other questions.