Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[John Bauer]

So God automatically gets the credit for good, and we humans are blamed for authoring evil. How do you explain all the good that people do? Most of us don't make a practice of doing evil.

As a Calvinist, I shall volunteer to represent a controversial voice: People don't do good (Romans 3:12; cf. Tit 1:15-16).

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

Firstly, is God omnipotent? I will answer a question with a question. Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ. We will share in the inheritance because we, the Church, are the physical embodiment of God of Earth.

Secondly, sickness is a result of imbalance. The Bible teaches us what to eat and how to live to sustain balance. It is an improper diet, stress and self abuse that prevents the body from repairing itself. Unclean spirits can manifest in a body that is out of balance. All creation is in concert. He started procreation in a way that eliminates the “weak” (genetically inferior) and promotes the strong. Man’s independence of God’s plan caused the same effect as when your cells no longer serve the body. They become rogue, reproducing and feeding out of control creating a toxic environment for the rest of the organism. Man has become to this planet what cancer is to the body. Can God bring a scalpel and cut away the undesirable? Yes, but what if you are the undesirable? He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation so that those cells that wish healing may be restored.

Thirdly, the word “evil” brought into question translates to many things. Perhaps in context “adversity” or “calamity” or “displeasure” could be utilized. The contrast of “peace” (rest and balance) is “adversity”. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance, bringing once again peace.

You have made a lot of claims about reality. Please provide evidence to prove your claims. (My comments on your claims are in bold.) Thank you.

[Replying to Compassionist in post #60]

Which specifically do you require proof of? Everything in the body works to achieve homeostasis (balance). I could expand exhaustively on this alone. The word evil is translated in Strongs words;

Strong's Number
H7451
Original Word
רעה רע
Transliterated Word
ra‛ râ‛âh
Phonetic Spelling
{rah} raw-aw'
Strong's Definition
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - {adversity} {affliction} {bad} {calamity} + displease ({-ure}) {distress} evil ({[-favouredness]} {man} {thing}) + {exceedingly} X {great} grief ({-vous}) {harm} {heavy} hurt ({-ful}) ill ({favoured}) + {mark} {mischief} ({-vous}) {misery} naught ({-ty}) {noisome} + not {please} sad ({-ly}) {sore} {sorrow} {trouble} {vex} wicked ({-ly} {-ness} {one}) worse (-st) {wretchedness} wrong. [Including feminine ra´ ah; as adjective or noun.]

Please prove claims you made in your post with evidence:
1. God exists.
2. God created us to do God's Will.
3. We are the physical embodiment of the God of Earth.
4. Unclean spirits exist and can manifest in a body that is out of balance. There are many illnesses which are not caused by improper diet or stress or self-abuse. Please prove that clean and unclean spirits exist.
5. All creation is in concert.
6. He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation. Please remember that 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. How is that a cure?
7. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance. Why would God make some organisms weak and some organisms strong? How is that ethical? Adversity does not restore balance. It leads to suffering and death. Please see: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 30851.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... itish_rule

https://www.newstatesman.com/economics/ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

https://www.adaptt.org/about/the-kill-counter.html

https://www.globalissues.org/article/23 ... and-equity

Why would I spend hours trying to prove anything? I cannot merely post links to help you believe, no more than you can post links to make me doubt. If you are unable to see the intelligent design of creation then you aren’t looking hard enough. This is the Logos spoken of in John 1. It’s not Word it’s Logos. If I thought you were truly interested in learning I might spend the time but I’m convinced you just like to doubt. If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!

You can't prove your claims. Otherwise, you would have proven your claims. What you said on your latest reply is an attempt to evade the burden of proof which falls on anyone who makes claims about reality.

Can you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul? If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail. The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed. Show me how it evolved and you would get a Nobel prize. You can’t. Neither burden is satisfied. I told you how to make a “phone call” to the One who can answer you. If you really wanted to know instead of scoff then you would be fasting by now.

You are still evading your duty to prove your claims. I am not claiming to know the whole truth about reality - you are. I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist. I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jain or a Buddhist or a Jew or a Bahai or a Daoist or Zoroastrian, etc. There are many ideas which can not be proven or disproven. For example, we can't prove or disprove whether we live in a computer simulation run by aliens. According to Hinduism, the world we perceive through our senses is not real but is an illusion called the Maya. This can't be proven or disproven either.

I have fasted for up to 10 days many, many times. I have spent thousands of hours in meditation and prayers across the last 39 years. You do not know me and would be wise not to make assumptions.

Living things are clearly not the product of intelligent design. Our flaws show that we evolved. Please see https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/human- ... ent-design

That book is no more proof to macro evolution than the Bible is to God. If I showed you a building made of bricks and wood, with a plumbing system and electricity and heating and cooling would you say it could have evolved from a cave? After time the metal from the earth formed copper strands and polymers encased it to provide a current for electrons to flow through. If a wind came and caused the roof to lift so it leaked, would that prove all the more it wasn’t designed and constructed? Can a cell phone evolve from an abacus? Our body is far more complex than a building. Our brains more than cell phones. Regardless, like I stated you have all of the answers you want. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you meditated. I don’t know why you fasted. I don’t know who you prayed to and why you didn’t get an answer when I did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t get answers. Let me ask you a question. What do you think happens when we die? Do you have thoughts on the pineal gland?

Please see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc and https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... reationist and https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-of-life/

I am not denying your experiences. Your experiences do not prove that the Bible is true and ethical and that the Biblical God is real and good. Your experiences could be self-hypnotic delusions but not necessarily so. I have tried praying to all the Gods of the top twelve religions. None of them answered any of my prayers. I fasted to please God but I don't know whether God was pleased or displeased by my fasting. I lost a lot of weight. My commitment is to truth and ethics. That's why I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

When living things die the bodies decompose unless frozen in a freezer. Many religions claim that we are immortal souls and if you believe in that particular religion e.g. Christianity or Islam, you go to heaven. Other religions e.g. Hinduism and Jainism claim that we are immortal souls who reincarnate based on our Karma. I am not convinced that any of the religions are true. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland if you want to learn about the pineal gland. My thoughts on the pineal gland are as follows: we need it to produce melatonin.

[Compassionist]

If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!

And if God doesn't speak to you, try, try and try again until he does. That has all the hallmarks of self brainwashing.

Yes, it could be self-hypnosis and delusion.

[Compassionist]

If sin and evil are not created entities like rocks or trees, exactly how are they brought into the world?

There is a theological position that maintains these are apophatic terms referring to a privation, that is, the absence of good.¹ Just as darkness is not a substance in itself but is the absence of light, so Augustine argued that evil is not itself a substance or entity: "For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name ‘evil’." Ergo, sin and evil are explained by the absence of good (i.e., separation from God, rebellion against God, disobedience to God, enmity with God), wherein God defines good.

There are other approaches to defining and explaining evil, of course, but this is the one that reflects my theological perspective.

__________
¹ Typical of Augustinian theology, such as Calvinism.

I am not convinced that the Bible is true and ethical and that the Biblical God is real and good. "Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil." - Albert Schweitzer, "Civilization and Ethics", 1949. According to the Bible, the Biblical God has harmed many living things. Hence, God is evil (imaginary or real). Please see https://www.evilbible.com Thank you.

[Compassionist]

So God automatically gets the credit for good, and we humans are blamed for authoring evil. How do you explain all the good that people do? Most of us don't make a practice of doing evil.

As a Calvinist, I shall volunteer to represent a controversial voice: People don't do good (Romans 3:12; cf. Tit 1:15-16).

Yes, people do lots of good. As do lots of other organisms. Please prove with evidence that the Bible is true and ethical and that the Biblical God is real and good. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17, The Bible (New International Version). Just because the Bible claims to be 'God-breathed', it does not make it true and ethical. "Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil." - Albert Schweitzer, "Civilization and Ethics", 1949. The Biblical God has harmed many living things. Hence, God is evil (imaginary or real). Please see https://www.evilbible.com Thank you.

[John Bauer]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #86]

Yes, people do lots of good.

It is a logical fallacy to think that simply asserting the contrary amounts to a counter-argument, much less a refutation.

[John Bauer]

I am not convinced that the Bible is ... [snip the rest]

That may be true, but it is autobiographical and thus not relevant.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #86]

Yes, people do lots of good.

It is a logical fallacy to think that simply asserting the contrary amounts to a counter-argument, much less a refutation.

No, my statement is based on actual evidence that people do lots of good. The Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real). You have failed to prove that the Bible is true and ethical. You have also failed to prove that the Biblical God is real and good.

[Compassionist]

I am not convinced that the Bible is ... [snip the rest]

That may be true, but it is autobiographical and thus not relevant.

It's relevant to all who actually exist, i.e. people and other organisms. The Bible alleges that we are Sinners and only God is good. It is totally false. God is evil (imaginary or real) and we are real and good. I have helped and continue to help other humans and living things through my actions. That's what makes me and other helpers good. The Biblical God does not help, despite alleged omniscience and omnipotence.

[brunumb]

If sin and evil are not created entities like rocks or trees, exactly how are they brought into the world?

There is a theological position that maintains these are apophatic terms referring to a privation, that is, the absence of good.¹ Just as darkness is not a substance in itself but is the absence of light, so Augustine argued that evil is not itself a substance or entity: "For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name ‘evil’." Ergo, sin and evil are explained by the absence of good (i.e., separation from God, rebellion against God, disobedience to God, enmity with God), wherein God defines good.

There are other approaches to defining and explaining evil, of course, but this is the one that reflects my theological perspective.

__________
¹ Typical of Augustinian theology, such as Calvinism.

That's all very well but just exactly how was sin brought into the world?