Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[John Bauer]

No, my statement is based on actual evidence that people do lots of good.

It's kind of weird that you never included any evidence. A member of this forum asked, "How do you explain all the good that people do?" In response, I volunteered to provide a controversial opinion, that of a Calvinist: "People don't do good" (and the biblical evidence for that claim). My intention was to highlight how the person's question was based on a debatable presupposition.

You responded by saying, "Yes, people do lots of good. As do lots of other organisms." And that was it. No evidence, just a contrary assertion. It's kind of weird that someone like you would make a claim without including even a shred of evidence, even though it's supposedly based on evidence. Kind of weird, mate.

I am not convinced that the Bible is ... [snip the rest]

That may be true, but it is autobiographical and thus not relevant.

It's relevant to all who actually exist, i.e. people and other organisms. ... [snip rest]

The fact you're not convinced about something is relevant to all people and other organisms? That's fairly narcissistic.

[Paul of Tarsus]

So God automatically gets the credit for good, and we humans are blamed for authoring evil. How do you explain all the good that people do? Most of us don't make a practice of doing evil.

As a Calvinist, I shall volunteer to represent a controversial voice: People don't do good (Romans 3:12; cf. Tit 1:15-16).

Matthew 5:16:

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

If people don't do good works, then I don't think Christ would command us to. Passages like Romans 3:12 are "time specific" which is to say that they speak of times in which people don't do good. Obviously, if people did no good all the time it would be pointless to upbraid them for it.

[John Bauer]

[Replying to brunumb in post #91]

That's all very well but just exactly how was sin brought into the world?

Through privation, I said, offering one point of view. I typed all that up with the expectation that you would read it and take it into account when you responded.

In the event that it was not clear enough, sin was brought into the world through privation—that is, separation from God, rebellion against God, disobedience to God, enmity with God—wherein God defines good.

[brunumb]

My point was that sin entered the world because of Adam and Eve's bad choice, made because the devil made them question God's love which, by the way, is still one of the devil's favourite lies about God which still influences people today in spite of Christ's death on our behalf, done in love.

What exactly does sin entered the world entail since it is not a thing that can simply come and go?

[John Bauer]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #93]

If people don't do good works, then I don't think Christ would command us to.

I see your reference to Matthew 5:16, and respond with Rom. 8:7-8 (cf. vv. 3-4):

The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

As it says in Php. 2:13, "It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Believers are "controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit," for they belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9); by virtue of the faithfulness of Christ, the "righteous requirements of the law" are fully met those who live according to the Spirit (v. 4).

The relevant issue is not time but union with Christ.

Passages like Romans 3:12 are "time specific" which is to say that they speak of times in which people don't do good.

Here is the specific passage (Rom. 3:10-12):

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

What exegetical element indicates that this is "time specific"? It does not say "at times there are those who are not righteous," or "sometimes there are people who don't do good."

[brunumb]

In the event that it was not clear enough, sin was brought into the world through privation—that is, separation from God, rebellion against God, disobedience to God, enmity with God—wherein God defines good.

That still doesn't do it for me. Sin is not an entity. A sin doesn't exist until someone enacts it. Therefore what we might have is the capacity to sin originating somehow or 'entering' the world. But if Adam and Eve originally didn't have the capacity to sin they wouldn't have done so. We must then conclude that it was there all along. What is unforgivable on God's part is that he allowed the triggers for committing sin, the tree of knowledge of good and evil plus the seductive serpent, into the garden, He then showed complete indifference in allowing what subsequently unfolded without any attempt at intervention.

[brunumb]

The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

That's just branding people who are not buying into a particular religious point of view as sinful. All part of the manipulation and control process.

[John Bauer]

[Replying to brunumb in post #97]

That still doesn't do it for me. Sin is not an entity. A sin doesn't exist until someone enacts it. Therefore, what we might have is the capacity to sin originating somehow or 'entering' the world. But if Adam and Eve originally didn't have the capacity to sin they wouldn't have done so. We must then conclude that it was there all along.

You asked how sin was brought into the world, not the capacity to sin. Did you mean to ask not about sin but rather the capacity to sin? They are, of course, two rather different questions.

Sin was brought into the world through privation. Through deciding for themseleves whether or not X was good, Adam and Eve severed the communion with God that mankind had enjoyed. With this separation and rebellion, sin now existed in the human realm. We are covenant-breakers who are dead in our transgressions and sins.

What is unforgivable on God's part is that he ...

An interesting excursus that isn't relevant to how sin was brought into the world, so I shall not engage it.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

Firstly, is God omnipotent? I will answer a question with a question. Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ. We will share in the inheritance because we, the Church, are the physical embodiment of God of Earth.

Secondly, sickness is a result of imbalance. The Bible teaches us what to eat and how to live to sustain balance. It is an improper diet, stress and self abuse that prevents the body from repairing itself. Unclean spirits can manifest in a body that is out of balance. All creation is in concert. He started procreation in a way that eliminates the “weak” (genetically inferior) and promotes the strong. Man’s independence of God’s plan caused the same effect as when your cells no longer serve the body. They become rogue, reproducing and feeding out of control creating a toxic environment for the rest of the organism. Man has become to this planet what cancer is to the body. Can God bring a scalpel and cut away the undesirable? Yes, but what if you are the undesirable? He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation so that those cells that wish healing may be restored.

Thirdly, the word “evil” brought into question translates to many things. Perhaps in context “adversity” or “calamity” or “displeasure” could be utilized. The contrast of “peace” (rest and balance) is “adversity”. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance, bringing once again peace.

You have made a lot of claims about reality. Please provide evidence to prove your claims. (My comments on your claims are in bold.) Thank you.

[Replying to Compassionist in post #60]

Which specifically do you require proof of? Everything in the body works to achieve homeostasis (balance). I could expand exhaustively on this alone. The word evil is translated in Strongs words;

Strong's Number
H7451
Original Word
רעה רע
Transliterated Word
ra‛ râ‛âh
Phonetic Spelling
{rah} raw-aw'
Strong's Definition
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - {adversity} {affliction} {bad} {calamity} + displease ({-ure}) {distress} evil ({[-favouredness]} {man} {thing}) + {exceedingly} X {great} grief ({-vous}) {harm} {heavy} hurt ({-ful}) ill ({favoured}) + {mark} {mischief} ({-vous}) {misery} naught ({-ty}) {noisome} + not {please} sad ({-ly}) {sore} {sorrow} {trouble} {vex} wicked ({-ly} {-ness} {one}) worse (-st) {wretchedness} wrong. [Including feminine ra´ ah; as adjective or noun.]

Please prove claims you made in your post with evidence:
1. God exists.
2. God created us to do God's Will.
3. We are the physical embodiment of the God of Earth.
4. Unclean spirits exist and can manifest in a body that is out of balance. There are many illnesses which are not caused by improper diet or stress or self-abuse. Please prove that clean and unclean spirits exist.
5. All creation is in concert.
6. He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation. Please remember that 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. How is that a cure?
7. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance. Why would God make some organisms weak and some organisms strong? How is that ethical? Adversity does not restore balance. It leads to suffering and death. Please see: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 30851.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... itish_rule

https://www.newstatesman.com/economics/ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

https://www.adaptt.org/about/the-kill-counter.html

https://www.globalissues.org/article/23 ... and-equity

Why would I spend hours trying to prove anything? I cannot merely post links to help you believe, no more than you can post links to make me doubt. If you are unable to see the intelligent design of creation then you aren’t looking hard enough. This is the Logos spoken of in John 1. It’s not Word it’s Logos. If I thought you were truly interested in learning I might spend the time but I’m convinced you just like to doubt. If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!

You can't prove your claims. Otherwise, you would have proven your claims. What you said on your latest reply is an attempt to evade the burden of proof which falls on anyone who makes claims about reality.

Can you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul? If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail. The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed. Show me how it evolved and you would get a Nobel prize. You can’t. Neither burden is satisfied. I told you how to make a “phone call” to the One who can answer you. If you really wanted to know instead of scoff then you would be fasting by now.

You are still evading your duty to prove your claims. I am not claiming to know the whole truth about reality - you are. I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist. I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jain or a Buddhist or a Jew or a Bahai or a Daoist or Zoroastrian, etc. There are many ideas which can not be proven or disproven. For example, we can't prove or disprove whether we live in a computer simulation run by aliens. According to Hinduism, the world we perceive through our senses is not real but is an illusion called the Maya. This can't be proven or disproven either.

I have fasted for up to 10 days many, many times. I have spent thousands of hours in meditation and prayers across the last 39 years. You do not know me and would be wise not to make assumptions.

Living things are clearly not the product of intelligent design. Our flaws show that we evolved. Please see https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/human- ... ent-design

That book is no more proof to macro evolution than the Bible is to God. If I showed you a building made of bricks and wood, with a plumbing system and electricity and heating and cooling would you say it could have evolved from a cave? After time the metal from the earth formed copper strands and polymers encased it to provide a current for electrons to flow through. If a wind came and caused the roof to lift so it leaked, would that prove all the more it wasn’t designed and constructed? Can a cell phone evolve from an abacus? Our body is far more complex than a building. Our brains more than cell phones. Regardless, like I stated you have all of the answers you want. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you meditated. I don’t know why you fasted. I don’t know who you prayed to and why you didn’t get an answer when I did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t get answers. Let me ask you a question. What do you think happens when we die? Do you have thoughts on the pineal gland?

Please see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc and https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... reationist and https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-of-life/

I am not denying your experiences. Your experiences do not prove that the Bible is true and ethical and that the Biblical God is real and good. Your experiences could be self-hypnotic delusions but not necessarily so. I have tried praying to all the Gods of the top twelve religions. None of them answered any of my prayers. I fasted to please God but I don't know whether God was pleased or displeased by my fasting. I lost a lot of weight. My commitment is to truth and ethics. That's why I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

When living things die the bodies decompose unless frozen in a freezer. Many religions claim that we are immortal souls and if you believe in that particular religion e.g. Christianity or Islam, you go to heaven. Other religions e.g. Hinduism and Jainism claim that we are immortal souls who reincarnate based on our Karma. I am not convinced that any of the religions are true. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland if you want to learn about the pineal gland. My thoughts on the pineal gland are as follows: we need it to produce melatonin.

Are you interested in my conclusions based on information gathered from a multitude of resources over years of study or not? Like I said everything is opinion, just like you have an opinion. There is no proof there is no soul. I believe God spoke to me because of what He said and how different it was from what I was taught and my thoughts. He explained many things that make sense. What doesn’t make sense is if you don’t believe in Yahweh or the Bible why waste time debating it? It would be like me being a hardcore golfer and going on a hockey fan site and asking them to prove why hockey is the best sport. It’s an opinion. I don’t go to agnostic sites looking for arguments. It’s a counterproductive waste of time.

[brunumb]

Sin was brought into the world through privation. Through deciding for themseleves whether or not X was good, Adam and Eve severed the communion with God that mankind had enjoyed. With this separation and rebellion, sin now existed in the human realm.

I spoke of capacity to sin because that at least makes some sort of sense. Sorry, but your response still makes no sense to me. Sin doesn't exist until it is enacted. Which particular sins are you saying now existed in the human realm?