If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

[Purple Knight]

Questions for debate: If the more powerful being were the evil, and the rebel the good, how would you know this? What clues would you look for? Would it even be possible to glean such knowledge in a universe where the evil being is omnipotent and controls all? Is it a nonsense question because a being that was truly all-powerful would have every authority and power to set up the rules for good and evil and simply favour itself?

[1213]

...
That person must pay taxes makes person owned by the taxman. Have you any idea how we could set people free from that slavery?

What on earth has that got to do with the morality of owning people as property? And, no, the taxman does not own you. Ludicrous!

If we think it is moral that people must pay taxes, then it would be hypocrite to say slavery is immoral.

The one who can force you to pay taxes owns you similarly as slave was owned. Slave must work for the master and he had to give part of his effort to his owner. Taxpayer is in same situation. For example, here where I live, people work first about half a year for the government and the rest they can keep to themselves to pay living and food. Ancient slave didn’t have to do that, he got food and place to live from the owner, but basically the situation is the same. If Jews obeyed all the rules for slavery, it was a better deal to a slave than this modern one. They could have had freedom after 7 years while modern slaves will never be free, if government decides.

And, by what the Bible tells, no one should be anymore slave, because of Jeremiah 34:8-17* and this:

You were bought with a price. Don't become bondservants [=”slaves”] of men.
1 Cor. 7:23

Jesus set people free and I think that is the reason why governments usually hate Jesus and his disciples.

*The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

[William]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

[2ndRateMind]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

[William]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

]

Serving money in the process. Is there any record of Jesus saying anything about this?

Maybe it was Buddha who said that man cannot serve both god and money?

Perhaps it was Krishna who said if you follow him and belive his words you will be a free man rather than a slave to civil irresponsibility

[2ndRateMind]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

]

Serving money in the process. Is there any record of Jesus saying anything about this?

Maybe it was Buddha who said that man cannot serve both god and money?

Perhaps it was Krishna who said if you follow him and belive his words you will be a free man rather than a slave to civil irresponsibility

No, it was Jesus, attributed as follows:

The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke both quote Jesus using the word in a phrase often rendered in English as 'You cannot serve both God and mammon.'

I don't quite see how paying your taxes (in a liberal democracy), amounts to 'serving money.' Perhaps you can explain? After all, He also said 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'

Best wishes, 2RM.

[William]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

]

Serving money in the process. Is there any record of Jesus saying anything about this?

Maybe it was Buddha who said that man cannot serve both god and money?

Perhaps it was Krishna who said if you follow him and belive his words you will be a free man rather than a slave to civil irresponsibility

No, it was Jesus, attributed as follows:

The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke both quote Jesus using the word in a phrase often rendered in English as 'You cannot serve both God and mammon.'

I don't quite see how paying your taxes (in a liberal democracy), amounts to 'serving money.' Perhaps you can explain? After all, He also said 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'

Best wishes, 2RM.

Reportedly said, would be the true way to put it.

So in those two things Jesus reportedly said, they appear to cancal each other out.

In answer to your question I say that if democracy is okay to serve, there seems no reason why one would have to also serve Jesus, unless doing one is doing the other. In which case, everyone serving monetary systems democratically is also serving Jesus.

Or perhaps Jesus was answering one of those trick questions asked of him by those who were serving the democracy of the day.

Telling those that if they use money they serve/are slaves to the one who owns the money

According to your answer it appears that it must have been the image of Jesus on the money for why else would would he tell us to pay taxes based on the idea that we can serve monatary systems and Jesus/God at the same time because all rendering is essentailly rendering to God

[2ndRateMind]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

Serving money in the process. Is there any record of Jesus saying anything about this?

Maybe it was Buddha who said that man cannot serve both god and money?

Perhaps it was Krishna who said if you follow him and belive his words you will be a free man rather than a slave to civil irresponsibility

No, it was Jesus, attributed as follows:

The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke both quote Jesus using the word in a phrase often rendered in English as 'You cannot serve both God and mammon.'

I don't quite see how paying your taxes (in a liberal democracy), amounts to 'serving money.' Perhaps you can explain? After all, He also said 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'

Best wishes, 2RM.

Reportedly said, would be the true way to put it.

So in those two things Jesus reportedly said, they appear to cancel each other out.

In answer to your question I say that if democracy is okay to serve, there seems no reason why one would have to also serve Jesus, unless doing one is doing the other. In which case, everyone serving monetary systems democratically is also serving Jesus.

Or perhaps Jesus was answering one of those trick questions asked of him by those who were serving the democracy of the day.

So, you almost have it right. Firstly, He did not live in a democracy, just in the Roman empire. But, secondly, He was definitely answering a 'trick question', put to Him by the established Jewish religion, in an effort to trap Him, so the Romans would have reason to deal with Him, and this irksome rabbi could be dealt with.

It wasn't an option for Jesus, but I judge that He would like to have lived in a liberal democracy, and be free to say whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted, to whoever He wanted.

But then, maybe we would have a lesser need for Him, and maybe His incarnation unnecessary.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[William]

Of course, every Christian is a taxpaying slave, if indeed being a taxpayer is to be a slave...
Therefore...what does that say about Christians/Christianity?

That we take our civil responsibilities seriously, and that we recognise that much more can be achieved by a group working together than by a whole bunch of individuals working separately.

Best wishes 2RM.

Serving money in the process. Is there any record of Jesus saying anything about this?

Maybe it was Buddha who said that man cannot serve both god and money?

Perhaps it was Krishna who said if you follow him and belive his words you will be a free man rather than a slave to civil irresponsibility

No, it was Jesus, attributed as follows:

The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke both quote Jesus using the word in a phrase often rendered in English as 'You cannot serve both God and mammon.'

I don't quite see how paying your taxes (in a liberal democracy), amounts to 'serving money.' Perhaps you can explain? After all, He also said 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'

Best wishes, 2RM.

Reportedly said, would be the true way to put it.

So in those two things Jesus reportedly said, they appear to cancel each other out.

In answer to your question I say that if democracy is okay to serve, there seems no reason why one would have to also serve Jesus, unless doing one is doing the other. In which case, everyone serving monetary systems democratically is also serving Jesus.

Or perhaps Jesus was answering one of those trick questions asked of him by those who were serving the democracy of the day.

So, you almost have it right.

According to?

Firstly, He did not live in a democracy, but in the Roman empire.

It is my observation that The Roman Empire was indeed a democracy and it was a vote which got many of it's Emperors the "knife" when democracy so deemed it necessary.

According to the Bible stories, Jesus did live in a democracy, and recognized the peoples choice...even in relation to them being able to choose to pay taxes, as clearly that story tells us...

Also, the people were given the chance to vote by Pilot, who was a member of the Roman democracy...the ever present presence of democracy...

But, secondly, He was definitely answering a 'trick question', put to Him by the established Jewish religion. It wasn't an option for Him, but I judge that He would like to to have lived in a liberal democracy, and be free to say whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted, to whoever He wanted.

This bodes with what we are told through the story. Jesus had to do most [the bulk] of his teaching in private... Nothing was recorded on those lessons, at least that we know about...

[2ndRateMind]

Ho hum. I suggest you read up on your classical history, and see if you still think the Roman Empire to have been a liberal democracy.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[William]

Ho hum. I suggest you read up on classical history, and see if you still think the Roman Empire to have been a liberal democracy.

Why? I only wrote "democracy". You brought "liberal" into it...
Are you suggesting that "Liberal Democracy" is the same thing as "The Fathers Kingdom"? For it does appear that Jesus was being very specific on that.
It makes me then wonder who's head would be on The Fathers Coin of that Liberal Democracy ...I can't imagine it...John The Baptist's maybe?
Although, that was a plate rather than a coin...but in Tarot, "plates" are coins...I digress...

Best wishes, 2RM

.

What does that mean?