If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

[Purple Knight]

Questions for debate: If the more powerful being were the evil, and the rebel the good, how would you know this? What clues would you look for? Would it even be possible to glean such knowledge in a universe where the evil being is omnipotent and controls all? Is it a nonsense question because a being that was truly all-powerful would have every authority and power to set up the rules for good and evil and simply favour itself?

[Tcg]

You are suggesting that a God who plays hide and seek is good?


Tcg

No. I am simply pointing out the disadvantages that would accrue were God to provide us an objective proof or disproof of Himself. As for our subjectives, well, God provides us with plenty of these once we have decided to place our faith in Him. Problem is, subjective proofs do not travel well.

Best wishes, 2RM.

This response of course ignores the first half of my post that points out that according the Bible God has provided us an objective proof of his existence. Did you overlook that for some reason?


Tcg

[brunumb]

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

What has omnipotence got to do with knowing right from wrong?

[2ndRateMind]

Now we're cooking with gas! It is my belief that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven. One either believes, or one doesn't. As I have said elsewhere, a proven God would be damaging both to the individual particularly and humanity generally.

You're absolutely right. It would be damaging even to morality. What would that mean, that eternal knife at all our throats, do ill and you get sliced straight to Hell? Arguably just by knowing that knife is really there, it makes all our efforts to be good meaningless; it reduces them to the fearful screeching of a monkey being accosted by a bigger monkey.

However, a working disproof of God has no such flaws.

Seems to me that God hides Himself from those who do not love Him, and want nothing to do with Him. And that is my 'argument from freedom'. Since freedom is highly regarded, perhaps above all else, one may infer that the entity that bestowed that freedom on us is good.

I have no freedom. Not such as I want, anyway. If I make Choice A, that will be evil, but if I pick B, then that will be the evil choice. I have been called a genius, I have been called some other generally nice things, but not once in my life have I chosen a choice that has been good, and not for want of trying.

What is good? Is it he who protects minorities the most? He who opposes racism the most? That's certainly what it seems. I wouldn't know if it was actually the case since I'm a psychopath and I seem to be missing that part of my brain.

So, here is Christianity 101.

Jesus commanded us to 'Love God' and 'Love each other'. The book of common prayer reminds us of this when it uses the phrase 'whose service is perfect freedom'. I connect the two because, for those of us who love as Jesus' injunction, well, we find that service is entirely free, because we have no wish to live in any other way.

[2ndRateMind]

You're not. It got off-topic but I don't ever mind that.

Yours is the exact kind of answer I was looking for.

So let's run with that. Alright, you couldn't know, so do I have this right?:

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

Yes, I'd agree 100%.

Good! Wonderful! Now we're getting somewhere.

Now we apply contraposition to the statement.

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

Negate each:
~(there is a being that is truly omnipotent) = there is not a being that is truly omnipotent-
~(we cannot know right from wrong) = we can know right from wrong
And swap:
...And we get:

If we can know right from wrong, there cannot be a being that is truly omnipotent.

I say that's a pretty decent disproof of God. It's not airtight but frankly I think it's better than anything else out there. I call it the Argument from Morality. It fails if one is forced to admit that it's every bit possible the wool is simply being pulled over our eyes and we don't know, but most people who are moral are very certain that they do in fact know right from wrong.

Now we're cooking with gas! It is my belief that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven. One either believes, or one doesn't. As I have said elsewhere, a proven God would be damaging both to the individual particularly and humanity generally. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent proven God would confront us with a problem of obedience. How could we dare to disobey Him? What happens to free-will in such a scenario?

The author of the mythology contained in Romans 1 disagrees with you. Odd that you'd reject that mythology and not the mythology that teaches that there is a God.

I can only plead that I missed your point amid all the quotes. I was not deliberately ignoring you.

The letter to the Romans was written about 2000 years ago. I like to think that humanity has made moral, philosophical and theological progress in the intervening time. As for God, He is eternal and everlasting, and does not age as do Paul's letters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Tcg]

You're not. It got off-topic but I don't ever mind that.

Yours is the exact kind of answer I was looking for.

So let's run with that. Alright, you couldn't know, so do I have this right?:

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

Yes, I'd agree 100%.

Good! Wonderful! Now we're getting somewhere.

Now we apply contraposition to the statement.

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

Negate each:
~(there is a being that is truly omnipotent) = there is not a being that is truly omnipotent-
~(we cannot know right from wrong) = we can know right from wrong
And swap:
...And we get:

If we can know right from wrong, there cannot be a being that is truly omnipotent.

I say that's a pretty decent disproof of God. It's not airtight but frankly I think it's better than anything else out there. I call it the Argument from Morality. It fails if one is forced to admit that it's every bit possible the wool is simply being pulled over our eyes and we don't know, but most people who are moral are very certain that they do in fact know right from wrong.

Now we're cooking with gas! It is my belief that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven. One either believes, or one doesn't. As I have said elsewhere, a proven God would be damaging both to the individual particularly and humanity generally. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent proven God would confront us with a problem of obedience. How could we dare to disobey Him? What happens to free-will in such a scenario?

The author of the mythology contained in Romans 1 disagrees with you. Odd that you'd reject that mythology and not the mythology that teaches that there is a God.

I have no idea of the purpose of this quote of my response. Did you intend to add something more?


Tcg

[2ndRateMind]

I have no idea of the purpose of this quote of my response. Did you intend to add something more?

Tcg

Sorry. That was an error on my part. I would have deleted the post, but decided to keep it for the sake of the integrity of the thread.

[Tcg]

As for God, He is eternal and everlasting, and does not age as do Paul's letters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Now all you have to do is provide evidence to support this claim. What evidence can you provide that does so?


Tcg

[2ndRateMind]

As for God, He is eternal and everlasting, and does not age as do Paul's letters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Now all you have to do is provide evidence to support this claim. What evidence can you provide that does so?


Tcg

I have all the subjective proof I need. God, however, is perfectly capable of defending Himself with objective proof, should He choose to do so.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Tcg]

As for God, He is eternal and everlasting, and does not age as do Paul's letters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Now all you have to do is provide evidence to support this claim. What evidence can you provide that does so?


Tcg

I have all the subjective proof I need. God, however, is perfectly capable of defending Himself with objective proof, should He choose to do so.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I didn't ask why you accept your claims, I asked for evidence to support your claims. This is a debate sub-forum after all. Given that God has chosen not to post here, your claims of his capability are not in evidence.


Tcg

[2ndRateMind]

As for God, He is eternal and everlasting, and does not age as do Paul's letters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Now all you have to do is provide evidence to support this claim. What evidence can you provide that does so?


Tcg

I have all the subjective proof I need. God, however, is perfectly capable of defending Himself with objective proof, should He choose to do so.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I didn't ask why you accept your claims, I asked for evidence to support your claims. This is a debate sub-forum after all. Given that God has chosen not to post here, your claims of his capability are not in evidence.


Tcg

There is no such evidence that you would accept. I can only say, to keep the thread moving onwards, what I mean by eternal and everlasting. Eternal: subsists outside of time. Everlasting: persists within time and as long as time.

Best wishes, 2RM.