If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

[Purple Knight]

Questions for debate: If the more powerful being were the evil, and the rebel the good, how would you know this? What clues would you look for? Would it even be possible to glean such knowledge in a universe where the evil being is omnipotent and controls all? Is it a nonsense question because a being that was truly all-powerful would have every authority and power to set up the rules for good and evil and simply favour itself?

[William]

I suppose what can be learned from all this is that at least while one is upon the Earth, one owes Caesar. One is owned by [a slave to] Those systems.

No getting around that fact.

In relation to Christianity, even given the existence of The Church - Jesus isn't able to free them from said slavery. Following Jesus hasn't benefitted them in that way.

[Purple Knight]

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

What has omnipotence got to do with knowing right from wrong?

An omnipotent being can do anything, so it could simply cause a thing to be wrong without our knowledge. It could set up the rules of the universe so that standing on one leg in a bucket of water is the most immoral thing imaginable. It could even do this on the fly, causing that to be wrong as someone is already doing it. It could lie to us about right and wrong and cause itself to be right even as lying is wrong.

The idea that we can know right from wrong precludes omnipotence. If we can know right from wrong, it means that knowledge is higher than God. God can't mess with it, in other words.

So, here is Christianity 101.

Jesus commanded us to 'Love God' and 'Love each other'. The book of common prayer reminds us of this when it uses the phrase 'whose service is perfect freedom'. I connect the two because, for those of us who love as Jesus' injunction, well, we find that service is entirely free, because we have no wish to live in any other way.

I've tried being kind to racists and been told universally that I was evil for it. I think "love each other" means "love other good people" and it also means hate evil people.

[William]

If there is any being that is truly omnipotent, we can't possibly know right from wrong.

What has omnipotence got to do with knowing right from wrong?

An omnipotent being can do anything, so it could simply cause a thing to be wrong without our knowledge. It could set up the rules of the universe so that standing on one leg in a bucket of water is the most immoral thing imaginable. It could even do this on the fly, causing that to be wrong as someone is already doing it. It could lie to us about right and wrong and cause itself to be right even as lying is wrong.

The idea that we can know right from wrong precludes omnipotence. If we can know right from wrong, it means that knowledge is higher than God. God can't mess with it, in other words.

Are you saying that being omnipotent automatically makes you someone that will use underhanded trickery in order to always keep lesser beings under your influence?

So, here is Christianity 101.

Jesus commanded us to 'Love God' and 'Love each other'. The book of common prayer reminds us of this when it uses the phrase 'whose service is perfect freedom'. I connect the two because, for those of us who love as Jesus' injunction, well, we find that service is entirely free, because we have no wish to live in any other way.

I've tried being kind to racists and been told universally that I was evil for it. I think "love each other" means "love other good people" and it also means hate evil people.

What makes your thoughts on this, the truth of the matter?

[Purple Knight]

Are you saying that being omnipotent automatically makes you someone that will use underhanded trickery in order to always keep lesser beings under your influence?

I'm saying an omnipotent being can do that, therefore we can't know it's not doing that. (It can also do the exact same actions and simply make itself not underhanded, and not deceitful. It actually has the Power of Definition many posters seem to aspire to. After all, what power does it not have?)

What makes your thoughts on this, the truth of the matter?

I've already admitted I have no idea what the truth is. It seems to me that whosoever protects minorities the most and opposes racism the most is good. But I have no innate knowledge of whether this is true or not as others seem to.

[William]

Are you saying that being omnipotent automatically makes you someone that will use underhanded trickery in order to always keep lesser beings under your influence?

I'm saying an omnipotent being can do that, therefore we can't know it's not doing that. (It can also do the exact same actions and simply make itself not underhanded, and not deceitful. It actually has the Power of Definition many posters seem to aspire to. After all, what power does it not have?)

What makes your thoughts on this, the truth of the matter?

I've already admitted I have no idea what the truth is. It seems to me that whosoever protects minorities the most and opposes racism the most is good. But I have no innate knowledge of whether this is true or not as others seem to.

Culture is where racism is manifested into this world. The truth is we all come from the same mother. End of story.

Whatever The Creator might be, it is each of us who determine what image we place upon that. I do not think your logic is complete as your argument shows.
[link]

[brunumb]

An omnipotent being can do anything, so it could simply cause a thing to be wrong without our knowledge.

One doesn't have to be omnipotent to declare that something is immoral. One just has to be regarded as an authority figure.

[Purple Knight]

One doesn't have to be omnipotent to declare that something is immoral.

Yes, but if one was omnipotent, one could declare something immoral and have that immediately come true, no matter what it was.

The question is basically this: Take eating a skin flake off of my lip as I just did. Is that immoral? Okay it's gross, but immoral?

If there is a being so powerful it can simply declare that immoral and have that be instantly true, and then either blind me to it or simply not tell me about it, I cannot know right from wrong, because I cannot know that omnipotent being hasn't done just that.

Is there some principle that if I had no way of knowing it was wrong, I'm not culpable? Well, a truly omnipotent being can simply destroy that principle. It can make that principle seem to exist but not, or it can even lie to us, change the rules on the fly, etc. The point is that if there is an omnipotent being, we can't know it hasn't done these things, so we can't know right from wrong.

[brunumb]

Yes, but if one was omnipotent, one could declare something immoral and have that immediately come true, no matter what it was.

Are you saying that the being essentially implants the idea/belief in everyone's mind? If that's the case then I agree with what you are saying. We would have no way of knowing.

[Purple Knight]

Yes, but if one was omnipotent, one could declare something immoral and have that immediately come true, no matter what it was.

Are you saying that the being essentially implants the idea/belief in everyone's mind? If that's the case then I agree with what you are saying. We would have no way of knowing.

Yes. And it can be proven that somebody's moral compass actually is wrong because many times, two people believe contradictory things are moral. Somebody's got to be wrong. But having a malfunctioning moral compass is only the simplest way we could be deceived.

Perhaps our moral compasses functioned correctly at the time which they were given. Then, some time after that, God simply changes its mind about what is moral and fails to make any adjustment in our moral instincts. Don't tell me it can't do that - it can do anything. That's the point of omnipotence. (Unless perhaps morality is a more basic part of the universe than that...?)

Or God simply lied about what was moral. For God, lies are moral, and for us, immoral. Again, are you going to tell me it can't do that? It can't make the rules?

As God is beyond logic, it could even give us a functioning moral compass that is still wrong. The moral compass points true North, and when I follow it precisely, I head due South because God decided logic was not to apply. God decided such-and-such was moral, I do it, and it is immoral. Again, it can't do that? Well, then you're denying omnipotence. (This one's a bigger stretch than the others, admittedly, and raises additional questions about logic vs chaos universes and which one we must be in if there's an omnipotent being.)

[2ndRateMind]

What makes your thoughts on this, the truth of the matter?

Ummm. Following the Austrian philosopher Karl Popper (1902-1994) one cannot prove a truth, only demonstrate an untruth. But when all is said and done, that is the way progress happens. So, to answer your question, I would submit that thus far, no one has disproven my philosophical stance.

Best wishes, 2RM.