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Replying to isaachunter in post #10]
Thanks for the point by point response, Isaac. I shall reply in kind.
You wrote:
For myself, though, in my experience with f2f meetings, I didn't often see genuine, self-sacrificial love exhibited from the members.
Here's the thing about churches: There are all kinds of imperfect people in them, people who are all at different stages of their spiritual development. They are all works in progress. Some will have hearts on fire for the Lord and purposely be working with the Holy Spirit to grow and mature and become more Christ-like (the goal we should all have). Some will not. Some will be there for the social aspect. They are not born-again or Spirit-filled. And these things are true, not just of the members of the congregation, but its leaders, including the man or woman who stands in the pulpit and delivers a sermon every Sunday.
I think about Paul appealing to Synteche and Euodia to get along in the church at Philippi. And I think about his letters to the Corinthians addressing the problems people were having with their relationships in those churches. Wherever people gather, there are going to be differences of opinion, differences in personality, differences in their commitment to the Lord. The purpose of the church is not to provide a place for perfect followers of Christ. Its purpose is to provide a place where the imperfect followers of Christ can learn and grow together, helping each other.
Isaac wrote:
But, if a purpose of the local meeting is to help each other mature, why is the format typically of a singular individual preaching and teaching? It is most often a handful of individuals with the masses serving the seat of spectator. Rarely do the masses speak to each other, let alone build each other up.
But it shouldn't be that way. I have never belonged to a church that didn't have small groups and Bible studies. That is were you connect with others and build each other up.
A church should not consist of merely a pastor/minister as leader with everybody else merely pew potatoes. A church should operate like an orchestra. The pastor is the conductor who keeps everybody on track, performing together. But the violinist and the flutist and the percussionist, etc. all have equal importance in the congregation and each have an important role to play.
I really think that, for the mature Christian, it isn't a matter of looking for a church where they can be fed like baby sparrows with their mouths open, waiting for somebody to drop food in. Mature Christians should be prayerfully finding a church where they themselves can contribute so that, if there's something they don't like in a church, they can be part of the solution.
Isaac wrote:
I'm also curious about the idea that individualism is fraught with danger. I suppose if one were to isolate from the Church universal entirely, meaning no commentaries, no books, nothing but one's own faulty mind and a Bible, then there is great possibility of error.
I've seen it happen time and time again -- and they often end up on forums like this trying to promote a warped idea of who God is, what Christ did and what the Bible says.
I agree that the Internet is a wonderful source of material from really fine scholars and teachers who love the Lord and are following him rightly. I, too, have been blessed mightily by having access to all of it.
Isaac wrote:
If I'm to be 100% honest (and if this is, indeed, what you were referring to), these kinds of activities hold no sway over me at all. It never has. Not even as a new believer. I always wondered why we spent time on Sunday's singing dreadful songs with everyone out of tune, and always wondered when it would finally all end. Does this necessarily make me an inauthentic Christian? Does it in some way invalidate my conversion, my profession, or my call before God? I would argue how dangerous it is to subject oneself to a corporate worship that often incorporates pagan and secular elements in order to artificially stir the emotions for ulterior means.
It sounds like you have been to bad churches! I'm sorry to hear that. Not enjoying a service doesn't make you an inauthentic Christian. Some services are terrible -- bad preaching, bad music, etc. I have sat through some bad ones myself.
Different churches have different cultures. As you say, there are those where people raise their hands and jump and dance. There are others quiet in nature where stillness and reverence are what it's all about. If you don't like the culture in one church, try another one if possible.
Isaac wrote:
Believe me, I've tried. Many times. Rather, it happens for me, instead, in silence, amidst solitude, in sacred and solemn and deserted places. I seek isolation not in need to run from something or someones, but in attempt to grasp in firm grip that which had first taken hold of me. It is not something I've ever experienced in the assembly. How can it be wrong that solitude and isolation draw me closer to God?
I did not say that solitude and isolation were wrong. In fact, I ended my post by saying that they are an integral part of the Christian walk. It's important to spend time alone with the Lord in whatever setting is best -- whether it's beside a stream in the woods, in your car in a MacDonald's parking lot, or sitting in your living room. The location doesn't matter. Spending quiet time with Jesus, listening for his voice is all-important. So by all means, keep meeting him in those solitary and isolated places. Jesus himself withdrew to such spots to commune with the Lord.
Isaac wrote:
Are we sure we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is in the f2f meeting? Or, maybe a better question would be, how can we conclude the same Holy Spirit is not likewise just as much present on the holy hill, or hidden deep in the wild places? Can we say the place to worship is only found in the commonly accepted place? Is it the synagogue? Is it the modern church building? Is it the house church? Is it at the river? Is it on the mountain top? Wouldn't it be in all of these places? Cannot God meet us anywhere?
Again, I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear in my post. I am NOT saying that you can't find the Holy Spirit on a mountain top or anywhere else for that matter. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, he's with you always and everywhere. I grew up on a farm and am an introvert. For me, the best place to go was to the woods at the back of the farm or the haymow in the barn -- two of my favourite places and yes, the Lord is in such places. So, yes, God can meet us anywhere.
And there are definitely churches where the Holy Spirit can't be found at all. So just because a building is designated as a place of worship, that doesn't mean that God is there moving or working. It isn't about a location. It's about the Holy Spirit and being where he is, working with others who also hear his voice. As an individual, in many cases, I cannot accomplish as much as I can with others -- like working with the church's soup kitchen, for example. While we can all serve as individuals, we can also serve corporately. Service should be part of our lives as followers of Christ.
Isaac wrote:
I'm starting to get the impression that you and I have had very different experiences in the modern Church, for I would argue the exact opposite.
I agree. It sounds like my church experiences have been far more positive. But I admit that I am not familiar with American churches. My experiences have all been here in Canada in denominations that don't even exist in the U.S.
Isaac wrote:
Could it not be more appropriate to state to each his call and election? Cannot one be called to minister to the saints, and another be called to pray, and another be called to reason and consider? One be called to the city center to evangelize while the other called to the wilderness to pray? If, say you are correct, and Christ and God are relational by nature and, thus, the body of Christ should, in turn, likewise be relational. Meaning, there is no place for the solitary within the body of Christ. Can you proffer an explanation for the solitary who is naturally inclined to isolation? Is it malformation? Is it heretical tendency? Is it rebellion? If so, should the solitary fight against everything within him, against the thrashing spirit, and present himself, regardless of his conviction, to the f2f meeting each week? Fake it?
Once again, I am not saying that there is no place for the solitary within the body of Christ. In fact, I am saying that there is. You are right about different callings. The one who is called to be an intercessory prayer warrior is going to be doing it in solitude much of the time, although not always. The one who has gifts re: hosting is going to open his or her home to a small group meeting.
So no, do not fight against the solitary. It's not an aberration. Nor is it heretical. You asked what the benefits of being part of a church are and I listed them, not to condemn you or to suggest that you HAVE to give up your solitary times with the Lord, but simply to give you valid reasons for joining a congregation.
Isaac wrote:
It's hard to imagine the modern Church's prohibition against solitaries when the majority of the great Christian thinkers over the centuries were hermits and wild men and anchorites. Strangely, before leaving the f2f Church, I had never once heard of these ancient men. No one wants to talk about them.
Does the modern Church prohibit solitaries? I have not seen that, but again, I'm not an American and I can't speak to what your churches do or do not promote.
As for churches not talking about the hermits and monastics, etc., churches here in Canada spend very little time talking about church history at all. So I don't think anybody here is leaving them out of the conversation because they think these people were wrong to live solitary lives. They are busy expounding the Word of God, helping people get closer to the Lord, showing them how Scripture is applicable to everyday life, etc. Talking about Benedict of Nursia living in a hole in the ground for three years to concentrate on the Lord doesn't come up in conversations like that.
Lastly, we all have different personalities, different needs, different responses to what goes on around us. There is no "one-size-fits-all" walk with the Lord. Everybody's is going to be different. You shouldn't be made to feel there is something wrong with your love of spending solitary time with the Lord. In fact, you should be commended for it. Some people haven't got a clue how to be alone and how to be silent and how to listen for God. Perhaps that could be your role in a church -- helping people to learn how to get closer to the Lord through solitude and aloneness -- especially during a pandemic when we are all isolated in one way or another.