So, it's morally wrong to get the J&J vaccine due to a cell line from an abortion being used in its production, but only if there's none other vaccines available now, for Catholics.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/clarity-cath ... 09541.html
Shouldn't they get standing strong in their convictions and letting God protect them for doing the right thing?
For discussion:
1) Is this hypocritical?
Why or why not?
2) If it's bad for reason XYZ, isn't it still bad if it's the only vaccine available? Does God waver on what's good or bad?
3) Or is this yet another way of religion and religious beliefs evolving based on and along side of society?
Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
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Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #1Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #2If your morality only stands when you have nothing big to lose from it, then you ain't got nothing but pretence.
If it's really, really wrong, it would stay wrong even if, "but, the consequences".
If consequences win when it's really, really bad, then we should all just do whatever we think will have the best consequences and avoid the worst. If consequences beat morality then consequences are morality and the only moral way is utilitarianism.
But there's a consequences argument for not just going on consequences!
Who gets to judge when it's bad enough to eschew the moral edicts and do what will have the best consequences? Everyone, because anyone might be right. That's chaos though. Imagine if every time someone got murdered, the murderer used the I-thought-he-was-the-next-Hitler defence. So does ignoring moral edicts whenever you think it's a good idea, a good idea? Heck no. It would be awful if everyone did this.
Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough. And at worst, they believe lying isn't wrong at all so they're lying about lying being wrong because they don't want to deal with being constantly lied to.
The trouble with consequences winning is that anyone who builds a moral institution, has built that institution on consequences-be-damned-here-is-morality. And then they get to say what morality is, and have people invest time and money in following their moral edicts. This may be selfishly conceived but it generally has good results because people know what they can and can't do.
If it's really, really wrong, it would stay wrong even if, "but, the consequences".
If consequences win when it's really, really bad, then we should all just do whatever we think will have the best consequences and avoid the worst. If consequences beat morality then consequences are morality and the only moral way is utilitarianism.
But there's a consequences argument for not just going on consequences!
Who gets to judge when it's bad enough to eschew the moral edicts and do what will have the best consequences? Everyone, because anyone might be right. That's chaos though. Imagine if every time someone got murdered, the murderer used the I-thought-he-was-the-next-Hitler defence. So does ignoring moral edicts whenever you think it's a good idea, a good idea? Heck no. It would be awful if everyone did this.
Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough. And at worst, they believe lying isn't wrong at all so they're lying about lying being wrong because they don't want to deal with being constantly lied to.
The trouble with consequences winning is that anyone who builds a moral institution, has built that institution on consequences-be-damned-here-is-morality. And then they get to say what morality is, and have people invest time and money in following their moral edicts. This may be selfishly conceived but it generally has good results because people know what they can and can't do.
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #3Luckily there is always a third option for those who don't want to lie, but also want to protect someone.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 pm ...Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough...
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #4Which is what, exactly?1213 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:48 pmLuckily there is always a third option for those who don't want to lie, but also want to protect someone.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 pm ...Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough...
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #5That depends on the exact situation. But, perhaps I could say that one way is to speak like a politician or main stream “journalist”.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:14 pmWhich is what, exactly?1213 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:48 pmLuckily there is always a third option for those who don't want to lie, but also want to protect someone.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 pm ...Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough...
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #6In the case of Jews in the attic, the third option is to actually protect them. In a world of liars and deceivers, no one even really thinks about this option.1213 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:48 pmLuckily there is always a third option for those who don't want to lie, but also want to protect someone.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 pm ...Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough...
I don't think there's always a third option, however. Sometimes? Sure. Usually? Arguably if you have a reasonable degree of freedom. But always? No, especially if you're in a situation where some other person has absolute or near-absolute power over you. Think woman in an abusive relationship... but in the Middle-East.
Western people are very spoilt in this regard, used to being granted enough freedom to find and use that third option. Even that German guy hiding the Jews could easily at least put up a fight. He'd lose, but he could put up a fight.
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #7That's vague and doesn't answer the question at hand.1213 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:37 pmThat depends on the exact situation. But, perhaps I could say that one way is to speak like a politician or main stream “journalist”.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:14 pmWhich is what, exactly?1213 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:48 pmLuckily there is always a third option for those who don't want to lie, but also want to protect someone.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 pm ...Most people will tell you it's wrong to lie, but not if there's Jews in your attic and Nazis come to see you. Well, they don't really believe lying is wrong then. What they actually believe is, at best, that lying is not wrong if you've got a good enough reason... they just don't think your reason is good enough...
I can only think there is no 'third option'.
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #8I think that is a good point. I believe there is always more options than people like to think, but I understand that in difficult situation, it may not be easy to see them.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:20 pm ...
In the case of Jews in the attic, the third option is to actually protect them. In a world of liars and deceivers, no one even really thinks about this option...
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #9And I prefer it that way. If I would tell exact answer, it would probably be used against me, or people that I want to protect for example from the Twitter mob and cancel-dictators, when they begin to send thought criminals to concentration camps.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:33 am That's vague and doesn't answer the question at hand.
I can only think there is no 'third option'.
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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available
Post #10It's like when someone says "I have many great photos of bigfoot that will prove it's real" but when asked to show them, they make an excuse as to why that can't happen.1213 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:50 pmAnd I prefer it that way. If I would tell exact answer, it would probably be used against me, or people that I want to protect for example from the Twitter mob and cancel-dictators, when they begin to send thought criminals to concentration camps.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:33 am That's vague and doesn't answer the question at hand.
I can only think there is no 'third option'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!