Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

[Benson]

Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."

Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.

[PinSeeker]

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4

That scripture says His will is that all people be saved and yet you are in fact saying 'no He doesn't.'

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie. If God our Savior's will is that all people be saved then it makes no sense that He would keep faith away from so many. That would make Him working against His own will and to think such a thing is asinine.

No, to both assertions. Predestination has no effect on the 1 Timothy passage to which you refer. That scripture says that it is His desire that all be saved, and that His salvation is available to all. But His will is a different thing. Can we not want to do something, but actually do otherwise? Of course we can. We can want a bowl of ice cream, but stay away from it because it will pack on the pounds, right? So our will trumps our desire. His will, with regard to His salvation, is always done. He has mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion. And He hardens whomever He wills. Romans 9:14-18 (verbatim) is crystal clear:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

I do not pray for the salvation of others.

Good. Point made. Think about it. Why do you pray to God for the salvation of others? Why not pray to those others?

My asking for their salvation means nothing.

Oh, but it does. If you think that, then why do you do it?

Um I don't think you're reading my posts. Also it's a shame you strip my posts of all scriptural references when replying,

AH!!!! In the first part of your quote above, I missed that 'not' in there. Ohhhhhh..... That's bad. But in the second part, yes, your praying for their salvation would mean a whole lot. What I said previously stands.

I don't "strip" your posts. I'm just trying to be efficient with bandwidth.

Grace and peace you.

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4

That scripture says His will is that all people be saved and yet you are in fact saying 'no He doesn't.'

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie. If God our Savior's will is that all people be saved then it makes no sense that He would keep truth and faith away from so many. That would make Him working against His own will and to think such a thing is asinine. If He controls whether or not people have faith and His will is that all have truth then why does He withhold faith? Predestination doctrine is such a vicious doctrine that sadly has trapped too many.

[Miles]

I do not pray for the salvation of others.

Good. Point made. Think about it. Why do you pray to God for the salvation of others? Why not pray to those others?

My asking for their salvation means nothing.

Oh, but it does. If you think that, then why do you do it?

Um I don't think you're reading my posts. Also it's a shame you strip my posts of all scriptural references when replying,

AH!!!! In the first part of your quote above, I missed that 'not' in there. Ohhhhhh..... That's bad. But in the second part, yes, your praying for their salvation would mean a whole lot. What I said previously stands.

I don't "strip" your posts. I'm just trying to be efficient with bandwidth.

Grace and peace you.

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4

That scripture says His will is that all people be saved and yet you are in fact saying 'no He doesn't.'

Considering that the means of salvation is only through Christ,

Acts 16:30-31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

and that millions people have never heard of such a thing, AND its town criers, ministers and such, have failed in convincing millions of its necessity, his will means bupkis. If god truly wanted such a thing he would have made sure everybody heard of it and was convinced of it. In reality, god either wanted no such thing or he's incompetent.

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie.

Because of the above scripture's lack of truth, making it a lie is hardly damning.

If God our Savior's will is that all people be saved then it makes no sense that He would keep truth and faith away from so many.

Considering the failure of "God our Savior's will" as I point out above, keeping truth and faith away from so many is quite logical. Perhaps not very nice, but certainly within the scope of his plan: make sure some get in and some stay out..

That would make Him working against His own will and to think such a thing is asinine.

Unfortunate the facts show otherwise. He has kept his "Get Out Of Jail Free" card from Millions upon millions.

If He controls whether or not people have faith and His will is that all have truth then why does He withhold faith?

Not that faith is at all trustworthy, but good question. Got an answer?

Predestination doctrine is such a vicious doctrine that sadly has trapped too many.

Only if one is committed to believing god has treated everyone to the chance of opting for his plan of salvation. As it's turned out, he has not.


.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #34]

This reply is the product of the predestination doctrine. I wonder if doctrines that lead people away from the Bible make people like pinseeker happy? If so, they should be very happy with this reply.

[2timothy316]

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie.

Because of the above scripture's lack of truth, making it a lie is hardly damning.

Scripture is not on trial here. This is not the forum for it.

However, but people that still care about truth about God need to figure out if they believe the predestination doctrine or what they read in the Bible.

[Miles]

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie.

Because of the above scripture's lack of truth, making it a lie is hardly damning.

Scripture is not on trial here. This is not the forum for it.

Really! Please note that the first words out of the OP is scripture. PLUS, you use scripture, particularly in post 27, to make your points. Cite any scripture and you best be prepared to defend it. After all this is a Debate Forum, where everything said is up for dispute, debate, or at least examination.


.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #37]

I do not have to prove that my scriptures are true or not. You want another forum for those types of discussions. If you want to debate then the Bible is your only authoritative tool here. It is not on trial. You know this about this forum.

If you want to discuss scripture that's fine. But for you to call it untrue is not a debatable subject for me and it's not really the purpose of this forum. Debating the doctrine a scripture creates is up for debate. If you want to weigh in on 1 Tim 2:3,4 and how it either supports or defeats the doctrine of predestination I'd be happy to reply. But if you're just going to call the Bible untrue, I do not want anything to do with that discussion.

"Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here."
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3168

[PinSeeker]

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4

That scripture says His will is that all people be saved and yet you are in fact saying 'no He doesn't.'

No, that He "would have all men to be saved" is to say that His desire is that all would be saved. It does not speak to His actual will. See above. Now, He could, if He so chose, bend His will to meet His desire, but to do that, He would be compromising His justice, which of course He can not and will not do. As we read in Deuteronomy, "The Rock, His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He." (32:4)

Predestination makes the above scripture a lie.

If you read it in the erroneous way that you read it, it does. But that's... erroneous. See above.

If God our Savior's will is that all people be saved...

But that's not His will, 2timothy316, it's His desire. If it were actually God's will that all would be saved, then they would be saved. I do agree with you on the "working against His own will" thing; yes, that's a ridiculous thought. But God resists His desire so that His will is accomplished. To not be able to make that distinction is... well, it's just wrong.

Predestination doctrine is such a vicious doctrine that sadly has trapped too many.

It can't be ignored or dismissed, because it's in the Bible. Throughout, really. The danger is in understanding it wrongly, or misunderstanding other passages to the point of conflicting with it, or both.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4

That scripture says His will is that all people be saved and yet you are in fact saying 'no He doesn't.'

No, that He "would have all men to be saved" is to say that His desire that all would be saved. It does not speak to His actual will. See above.

BTW here are some other translations that don't have the word 'would'.
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-4.htm

If He is control of who has faith and who doesn't why wouldn't He give all of mankind faith and the knowledge of the truth? You're saying the only person stopping a person from gaining faith is God. Why is God his own worst enemy? Certainly you can see how broken this lying doctrine is.

[myth-one.com]

We know that God is totally sovereign over His creation. As such, with regard to His salvation, though He certainly desires that all would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, God chooses whom He chooses, has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion (Romans 9)

So God's granting of salvation to His Elect and them only is His prerogative as Creator; . . .

That conclusion is absolutely false!

God made everlasting covenants with mankind regarding the requirements for mankind gaining everlasting life.

Under the New Testament Covenant, man must believe in Jesus as his Savior to gain everlasting life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

So however everlasting life was distributed to or rejected from mankind in the past, the only path to everlasting life presently is to believe in Jesus as your Savior.

====================================

There are things God cannot do.

One of those things is to lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

If God rejects any believer from everlasting life, or grants everlasting life to any nonbeliever, it would be in violation of the New Testament Covenant -- and a lie.

God's "hands are tied" in this regard.

There is no "elect" outside of the Covenant.

If you want to call believers the "elect" I guess that's okay.

But God did not choose them!

They chose God.