Trying to be a Christian

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Neb
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Trying to be a Christian

Post #1

Post by Neb »

I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.

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Paul of Tarsus
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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #51

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #50]

If he wants to communicate to any of us, then he will do so directly and not let everybody else just take the supposed prophet's word for it.
Now how is that any different than what I said? Other than that I said God speaks to us through His Son?
Well, if you just consider what I say here without considering everything else you and I have said, then I suppose that we say the same thing. It appears, however, that you are making a special and unwarranted exception for Christ as a prophet. That's where we differ. If I thought I listened to Christ without anything but what I could make up to show for it, then I'd contact a psychologist to arrange for therapy. I sure wouldn't tell anybody I was listening to Christ because I try to be responsible and avoid misinforming people. I'm not going to tell anybody I've received a revelation from God or Christ when a much more likely explanation is that I'm mentally ill.

Anyway, it's claims like yours that make a mockery of God. Atheists and other skeptics have fodder to ridicule theism as childish and delusional if not dangerous. They realize that no real God is going to pick out special people to "listen" to him, or if he did, then he'd make sure his knowledge and power is evident. God doesn't want to make people talk and act as if they're either lying or off their rockers.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #52

Post by tam »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #52]


Sorry "Paul of Tarsus" but I'm just not gonna play with you this time around.


Peace still to you.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #53

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:02 pm Anyway, it's claims like yours that make a mockery of God. Atheists and other skeptics have fodder to ridicule theism as childish and delusional if not dangerous. They realize that no real God is going to pick out special people to "listen" to him, or if he did, then he'd make sure his knowledge and power is evident. God doesn't want to make people talk and act as if they're either lying or off their rockers.
Precisely. Usually, when they are unable to support their position, the next course of action is to simply cut and run. Fanciful claims are a dime a dozen, as are people wanting to feel special or superior when they are not.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #54

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:11 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:02 pm Anyway, it's claims like yours that make a mockery of God. Atheists and other skeptics have fodder to ridicule theism as childish and delusional if not dangerous. They realize that no real God is going to pick out special people to "listen" to him, or if he did, then he'd make sure his knowledge and power is evident. God doesn't want to make people talk and act as if they're either lying or off their rockers.
Precisely. Usually, when they are unable to support their position, the next course of action is to simply cut and run. Fanciful claims are a dime a dozen, as are people wanting to feel special or superior when they are not.
When people make God out to be some genie who allows some people--but not all people--to listen to him as he "reveals" his most profound messages, then I think any sensible person will be a bit skeptical when those chosen few end up on internet discussion boards posting things that anybody could post. Does God need to make known his expectations of us that way? It seems logical to me that God, if he says anything at all to us, would do so in a way that's distinguishable from what we might say. He's smart enough to know better than to talk like we do.

So I don't believe God communicates with us the way that religion claims. I've yet to see any prophecy that necessitates we believe that it came from God.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #55

Post by Purple Knight »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:02 pmAnyway, it's claims like yours that make a mockery of God. Atheists and other skeptics have fodder to ridicule theism as childish and delusional if not dangerous. They realize that no real God is going to pick out special people to "listen" to him, or if he did, then he'd make sure his knowledge and power is evident. God doesn't want to make people talk and act as if they're either lying or off their rockers.
Increasingly a lot of threads on this forum are related. This is heavily related to my thread on whether morality can be a guessing game.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=38210

If you believe God is fair, no, no it can't. Morality can't be a guessing game. A fair god does not run lotteries with salvation as the prize.

Therefore, in a world of liars, god would also not send people to give his words out who would simply have to be trusted. For then, how would I pick that fellow over a liar?

99% I am agreeing with you. 99%. However, there remains the pesky question of faith. This is not me as an atheist mocking anything. I don't malign that faith is an article of Christianity; it actually is. Nor am I maligning libertarians when I say they want legalised drugs because I can find that on their party platform. If atheists pointing out that Christians are all about faith amounts to a mockery, then perhaps the mockery was not made by atheists.

But again, if you do not believe I have to pick the right prophet from the liars to get the prize of Heaven, then we're on the same side: The side of rationality and evidence. 99% I'm agreeing with you.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #56

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

tam wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:22 pm [Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #52]


Sorry "Paul of Tarsus" but I'm just not gonna play with you this time around.


Peace still to you.
I'm sorry too, Tam, but I feel sorrier for those people who are hurting and desperately looking for help. When people run out of earthly solutions to their problems, they often turn to unearthly solutions that most often hurt them a lot more than help them. They become vulnerable to believing empty promises and in particular they become vulnerable to believing religious promises. I don't want anybody to be led astray wasting their time and money chasing a Christ who will never listen to or help them.

Logically, we would all listen to Christ if it was possible to do so. God wouldn't leave anybody out. Since many people have no communion with Christ, then God has no Christ we can listen to.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #57

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:54 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:02 pmAnyway, it's claims like yours that make a mockery of God. Atheists and other skeptics have fodder to ridicule theism as childish and delusional if not dangerous. They realize that no real God is going to pick out special people to "listen" to him, or if he did, then he'd make sure his knowledge and power is evident. God doesn't want to make people talk and act as if they're either lying or off their rockers.
Increasingly a lot of threads on this forum are related. This is heavily related to my thread on whether morality can be a guessing game.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=38210

If you believe God is fair, no, no it can't. Morality can't be a guessing game. A fair god does not run lotteries with salvation as the prize.

Therefore, in a world of liars, god would also not send people to give his words out who would simply have to be trusted. For then, how would I pick that fellow over a liar?
If you do not know how to do the right thing (and no human does the right thing all the time), there are a couple of guidelines to help you (guidelines that have been around since ancient man and that have been shared across cultures). I cannot see why anyone - atheist, theist, agnostic - would object.

1- Do not do to others what you would not done to you. That seems pretty basic to me, a basic rule of doing no harm. If you would not want to be stolen from, do not steal from others. If you would not want someone to bear false witness about you, then do not bear false witness about someone else.

The second guideline is more positive ('do', rather than 'do not'), and it is as Christ said:

2 - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you lost your wallet would you hope that someone would return it to you (money and all)? Then do the same thing for others.


If you have a hard time with morals (choosing the right and rejecting the wrong), then the above are some basic guidelines and you just have to think about your actions. As for the law that is from God, that is from the beginning, that law is love. It is a universal law - though not everyone follows it. But love does not steal. Love does not bear false witness; love helps a person who is in need (maybe a kind word, maybe buying that person groceries if times are tough for them < - and that could even be done anonymously.) Love does not gossip maliciously about someone else; love does not curse; love does show mercy.




Hope that helps some.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #58

Post by Purple Knight »

tam wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:36 pm1- Do not do to others what you would not done to you. That seems pretty basic to me, a basic rule of doing no harm. If you would not want to be stolen from, do not steal from others. If you would not want someone to bear false witness about you, then do not bear false witness about someone else.
Do I want people not to steal from me? Well, that's a little like wanting people on the street to randomly shower me with rose petals. It isn't part of the deal and it ain't gonna happen. If I'm going to refrain from lying about others or refrain from stealing, it has to be because that's the right thing to do, period.

I basically don't care how people treat me. It's stopped upsetting me. I see lying, cheating, and stealing as part of the deal. Should have locked my door. Should have bought a better security system. I don't want people to refrain from cheating me if it benefits them. If I take appropriate precautions perhaps it won't work. I can't ask that people are nicer to me than I deserve.

I still want to only do good, so I will refrain from lying, cheating, and stealing. But not because I don't want people to do that to me. That's absurd. To me anyway.
tam wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:36 pmIf you lost your wallet would you hope that someone would return it to you (money and all)?
No. I would hope they'd take it all, run up my credit card to max, and put me in debt so it would teach me a lesson about losing my wallet. I'd have an incentive to do better next time. If they returned it, I'd be embarrassed. I'm not some little child that I should be shielded from the consequences of my mistakes.

So what I have to do here is think, would most people want it returned? Well, probably. Most people are pure selfish, pure instantaneous and pure immediate benefit. All now, no later. They gain an immediate benefit from having the wallet returned, so they would probably want that.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #59

Post by Neb »

Thank you to all those who responded. The responses are very much appreciated.
Just after I posted, I got work teaching, so haven't had time to read through them all yet. But I will get to them.
I want to give myself time to think carefully about each one and to respond where appropriate.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #60

Post by William »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #52]

I was thinking about this yesterday. How there are some who claim to "hear the voice of the lord" but when pressed for details they revert to bible quotes - thus showing that really - they are hearing the voices of the bible and somehow translating that to mean that they are hearing the voice of the lord.

Following some stories re the biblical Jesus, there are times when he reverts to scripture but mostly what he is saying are things not found directly in scripture, so at the very least, if one is hearing the voice of the lord, one should be able to share what was said, rather than simply revert to scripture.

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