Are atheists afraid of God?

[Paul of Tarsus]

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

[Purple Knight]

It appears that I define atheism a bit differently than some other people do. I have the right to do that and to argue why my definition fits better.

It is specifically because I absolutely support you here that I am going to go on and address the next bit of your post the way I do.

I have already posted that if we define an atheist as a person who totally lacks any theistic belief, then the result is that many people who think, talk, and live as atheists are actually theists! Don't you see how absurd that is? If Richard Dawkins, for instance, happens to have a wee bit of a gnawing in the back of his mind that God exists, then would he be a theist?

This is going to seem like a tangent but I swear it's not. I'm coming round to it again. The basic question. I swear.

Now, when we say God we're talking about the Christian God specifically. I'm not saying this to get a gotcha, at least, not here. I don't think Richard Dawkins (or any other popular atheist) is very likely concerned or lies awake at night wondering if just perhaps Ganesha exists, or if Purple Knight's God of Purple Paper People Eaters exists, and that's for two main reasons: 1) Neither of these things is a pervasive part of Western culture and 2) There's no risk involved; you won't go to Hell for not believing in Ganesha, or for not believing in the god I just invented. Even if I now invent that risk, you all just saw me do it and it's a bit of an obviously paper dragon. It can't hurt you. And you know so.

Now I think I can get back to the basic question here, which is what the guy lying awake at night is actually afraid of.

I think I can break this down and highlight what people might be afraid of and where it's legitimate and where it's not.

So, let's take our popular atheist who actually does lie awake at night worried that he's wrong. Let's not name a real person so we're not claiming anyone real is being disingenuous but call him by an appropriately arrogant moniker like Brett the Brain so we can all see what type of character we're constructing here. We'll say this fellow impresses people with his intellect on a very successful YouTube channel or something but loses at least some sleep worrying that he might be wrong.

What is Brett afraid of, exactly? Being cast into Hell at random? Well no. Because here's the thing: Any super-entity could do that and Brett doesn't lie awake at night worried that Star Trek's Q (or something like it) exists, even though that's very possible given an infinite universe. Why? Because given infinity, everything exists and there are more ways to be cruel and torture all the little super-powerly-challenged ant beings than there are ways to be kind to them.

So why isn't Brett afraid of any random super-entity that could easily exist and even more easily torture Brett for eternity? It's because, first of all, it's out of his control. A super-entity could kick over this anthill we call Earth, but if all it wants is to hurt us, and there's no way to please it, there's just no point worrying about that. We worriers such as Brett and myself (ah, kindred souls, we) can worry about any number of things, but unless we confine ourselves to worrying over things we can control, we're infinitely worrying about everything, and accomplishing nothing but scaring ourselves stupid. I don't worry about getting struck by lightning either. Random. See?

You know what's not random? Getting punished for something you did that you well know was wrong. Ganesha isn't going to punish you for stealing, and the Monkey God certainly won't. But the Christian God? Yeah, if that particular God exists, (Brett figures) he's gonna burn because he ate two grapes from the produce aisle at the grocery store without paying for them. Technically theft. And thou shalt not steal.

So here's what people such as Brett and myself actually have to be afraid of: We knew the rules and we broke them. It's the fear of being evil. It's the fear that maybe this was right or that was right and we ignored it. That's not random. If we had the information and disregarded it, that wasn't random. That wasn't out of our control.

But here's the rub: For every action, someone exists who will call that action evil. So you're forced to ignore some of it. So it's a game of pick-a-prophet. Maybe I select Jesus and I lose. Maybe I select Joseph Smith and I lose. But Muhammad? Ding-ding-ding, winner winner paradise dinner! And 72 virgins!

So I post a comment on Brett's latest video, which is him admitting that he loses sleep over whether God exists and he doesn't want to burn in Hell. Look, we're the same, I tell him. But it's only possible to fear a fair god. (Why? If he's unfair then we have no control over our fate and there's no point worrying about it.) An unfair god is just another super-entity - a force of nature. If God would make it a game of random chance - pick-a-prophet - that is not a fair god.

In other words, unless God provides us with direct evidence as to which prophet is correct - which morality and moral laws we really ought to follow - he's a super-entity with a gameshow, not a god, and there's no point worrying about whether he'll damn us to Hell or not because he's going to do it or he's not and we have no control over that. The control we have - to pick a random door with NO INFORMATION AS TO WHICH IS CORRECT - is an illusion designed to foment the worry and torture us further. This thing, this entity, which may well exist, is not god, and we not only shouldn't fear it... we really can't. We can't fear its arbitrary judgments or its gameshow of pick-a-prophet any more than we can fear getting sucked out into space or the world exploding. Random. No control. No point in any fear.

Conversely, a fair God? You can fear that. But that fear means you already have the information you need to make the right choice and you chose to do evil instead. Maybe you committed murder. You know that's wrong. Yes, you know it. If somebody on the side of justice is watching and they're powerful enough you're going to be punished. But those two grapes? No, we don't know that's wrong. We can't possibly know that. The truth is that everything but coldblooded murder is a grey area and everyone has their own opinion, and if God is going to make it a guessing game then he's not a fair god and I'm not the star of his little gameshow. I can be afraid I'll pick the wrong door but what good does it do me? None.

[Paul of Tarsus]

I think you'll find that such cases, like the one you presented, are a result of latent religiosity, not a result of atheism.

I'm not saying that atheism necessarily results in suppressed religiosity although it can, of course. In some cases atheists apparently experience a kind of vestigial religiosity in which they still experience beliefs they held when they had been religious. These vestiges of belief may be uncomfortable or even embarrassing for an atheist to avow, and many atheists may be loathe to admit they have them. To combat these vestiges of religion, the atheist may immerse himself in atheistic philosophy and literature and may seek out other atheists to assure himself that if they don't believe in God, then neither does he. You might call this phenomenon the "mirror image" of the religious believer who struggles with doubt and who seeks out ways to bolster his faith.

[Kylie]

I think you'll find that such cases, like the one you presented, are a result of latent religiosity, not a result of atheism.

I'm not saying that atheism necessarily results in suppressed religiosity although it can, of course. In some cases atheists apparently experience a kind of vestigial religiosity in which they still experience beliefs they held when they had been religious. These vestiges of belief may be uncomfortable or even embarrassing for an atheist to avow, and many atheists may be loathe to admit they have them. To combat these vestiges of religion, the atheist may immerse himself in atheistic philosophy and literature and may seek out other atheists to assure himself that if they don't believe in God, then neither does he. You might call this phenomenon the "mirror image" of the religious believer who struggles with doubt and who seeks out ways to bolster his faith.

And what about those atheists who never were religious, like me?

[William]

So if the existence of another universe constitutes evidence that supports the underlying premise that these are Creations, and a "god" constitutes something which Creates the Creation, then - as I wrote - "the next phase would make it possible for an atheist to think about changing their mind..."

The existence of another universe would provide evidence of another universe, not god/gods. In the same way that this universe isn't evidence of god/gods, another one wouldn't be either.


Tcg

Yep That is what I meant when I wrote

"I have always 'admitted' that much. For me, the existence of this universe is enough evidence. That is why I am a theist. But I know that my saying "Ta Dah! See the universe is the evidence!" is not what an atheist thinks of as evidence of a Creator which they can believe must exist. So in that, anything which is visible and seen to exist is never going to be evidence that gods exist as long as one retains their lack of belief in gods."

The idea of a Creator behind the fact of any existence experienced, adds to the Awesomeness of it all. Connecting with that consciousness allows me to know who I am in the thick of it all.

Perhaps a theist is someone who has need of that, but wichful thinking is not what delivers that...one simply has to sit up and take notice...but as is acknowledged...
... I am replying to an atheist so it would be foolish of me to think such would understand...and I accept that as part of the process.

Like a duck accepts water off its back...

Thing is, if I am correct about a "next phase" then someone like me could be handy to know for some atheists who will not take it well...

So "Win Win".

[it is no contest]

[Paul of Tarsus]

I'm not saying that atheism necessarily results in suppressed religiosity although it can, of course. In some cases atheists apparently experience a kind of vestigial religiosity in which they still experience beliefs they held when they had been religious. These vestiges of belief may be uncomfortable or even embarrassing for an atheist to avow, and many atheists may be loathe to admit they have them. To combat these vestiges of religion, the atheist may immerse himself in atheistic philosophy and literature and may seek out other atheists to assure himself that if they don't believe in God, then neither does he. You might call this phenomenon the "mirror image" of the religious believer who struggles with doubt and who seeks out ways to bolster his faith.

And what about those atheists who never were religious, like me?

If I understand your question, you are asking if people who have been atheists all their lives may have at least some theism in them. My answer is yes, even some life-long atheists can experience some religious urges and beliefs. I see no reason why they cannot have such beliefs. It's important to understand that the human mind is complex and imperfect, so it can accommodate conflicting thoughts. That's why an atheist can have some belief in God.

As we have seen on this thread, many atheists strongly oppose the idea that atheism does not exclude all theism in the mind of the atheist. To combat the idea, they assert that it is false repeating slogans that atheists do not believe in God and cannot believe in God. This caricature of atheists is obviously simplistic not to mention at odds with common understandings of atheism. Ironically, the atheists who employ such rhetoric end up acting like a lot of theists do! And that could never be a result of suppressed theism, now can it?

[brunumb]

As we have seen on this thread, many atheists strongly oppose the idea that atheism does not exclude all theism in the mind of the atheist.

Many? Really? I suppose when ones arguments end up in the rubbish bin one has to resort to inventing statistics to salvage them somehow.

To combat the idea, they assert that it is false repeating slogans that atheists do not believe in God and cannot believe in God.

If simply calling them false is the sum total of your case then it's not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

This caricature of atheists is obviously simplistic not to mention at odds with common understandings of atheism.

Your entire argument is simplistic and at odds with common understanding of atheism.

Ironically, the atheists who employ such rhetoric end up acting like a lot of theists do! And that could never be a result of suppressed theism, now can it?

Rhetoric doesn't even come into the picture. Theists just love telling atheists what atheism really means. They just can't seem to handle the fact that many people don't buy into fairy tales about magical beings and regard such things as belonging solely in the domain of the child's mind. Gods belong there too, but indoctrination sadly prevents mature minds from shedding their deity. Fear of God is actually what locks people in the cage of religious belief. Atheism brings liberation.

[Paul of Tarsus]

As we have seen on this thread, many atheists strongly oppose the idea that atheism does not exclude all theism in the mind of the atheist.

Many? Really? I suppose when ones arguments end up in the rubbish bin one has to resort to inventing statistics to salvage them somehow.

OK, if you don't like the word "many," then how about my saying that "several" atheists have strongly opposed the idea that atheism does not exclude all theism in the mind of the atheist? Also, if I was 'inventing statistics" to salvage my arguments, then I would have said that very few atheists oppose my idea.

To combat the idea, they assert that it is false repeating slogans that atheists do not believe in God and cannot believe in God.

If simply calling them false is the sum total of your case then it's not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

Calling them what false? I posted that it was they who asserted that my idea is false, not I.

This caricature of atheists is obviously simplistic not to mention at odds with common understandings of atheism.

Your entire argument is simplistic and at odds with common understanding of atheism.

I don't completely disagree that my argument lacks some depth. Unfortunately, I couldn't find much in the way of scientific studies examining what atheists believe. If anybody knows of any such studies, then please post links.

Ironically, the atheists who employ such rhetoric end up acting like a lot of theists do! And that could never be a result of suppressed theism, now can it?

Rhetoric doesn't even come into the picture.

Sure. Aside from many posts filled with shallow talk meant to refute my arguments, rhetoric just isn't evident on this thread.

Theists just love telling atheists what atheism really means. They just can't seem to handle the fact that many people don't buy into fairy tales about magical beings and regard such things as belonging solely in the domain of the child's mind. Gods belong there too, but indoctrination sadly prevents mature minds from shedding their deity. Fear of God is actually what locks people in the cage of religious belief. Atheism brings liberation.

Nope--no rhetoric at all on this thread! You followed your claim that rhetoric doesn't "enter the picture" here with several sentences of your own rhetoric. I suppose you are trying to relieve the thread of what you see as a death of rhetoric by pouring some rhetoric in.

Anyway, as far as the meaning of the word "atheism' is concerned, I am well aware that many atheists define it as a lack of belief in Gods. I'm just pointing out that other, perhaps more meaningful definitions are also available and are in widespread use.

Finally, I should point out that your rhetoric in this post is very similar to that of Christians when they find their beliefs under fire.

[William]

[Replying to brunumb in post #207]

Theists just love telling atheists what atheism really means.

Perhaps the one true Scotsman fallacy prevents one from saying what a true atheist actually is.

The problem in that may have to do with confusing the position with the personality claiming to be in said position.

Atheism and theism are positions - they describe positions people take. They do not describe the persons who take those positions.

One can say that the theist position is 'one who does not lack belief in [the existence of] gods' and then, from those positions of atheism and theism, branch out as 'atheists and theists' so really - therein - appears to be where the confusion is subsequently sourced. Atheism as a position is not necessarily what an atheist may be in their own personality.

Same goes for theism and theists.

[brunumb]

Finally, I should point out that your rhetoric in this post is very similar to that of Christians when they find their beliefs under fire.

Are you suggesting that I am finding my unbelief under fire? Too funny. I just can't get my head around the absurdity of someone insisting that one can fear a God that they do not believe exists. Why is there a desperate need for that to be true I wonder?

[brunumb]

Atheism as a position is not necessarily what an atheist may be in their own personality.

Who is suggesting otherwise? For many, myself included, atheism ends at not believing in gods. Beyond the occasional exchanges such as participation in this forum, atheism plays no significant part in my life at all. On the other hand, theism informs many other aspects of a believer's life beyond just having a belief in gods and their entire life and personality is shaped by their religion.