Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.
[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".
[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.
[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.
Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.
Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.
However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.
And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.
The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].
If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.
But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.
Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?
The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Moderator: Moderators
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14437
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 929 times
- Been thanked: 1680 times
- Contact:
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4254
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 182 times
- Been thanked: 473 times
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #111It's important to know how we got into the predicament we are in, meaning what are were we held by ransom to.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:42 amIn a few words, what is the mechanism by which believers are saved.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:13 amI agree, that does seem like what the Bible indicates. Wouldn't that mean that between 33 CE and when he sent his angel to John around 96 CE Jesus went to heaven, which means he must be a spirit creature to be in Heaven? Yes?myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:58 am The Word was in heaven or where every He wanted to be at that time.
Then I think the what question that needs answer is, why is it important in your mind that Jesus be raised as a fleshly creature only to become a spirit creature at some point before 96 CE?
Which would pay the ransom according to the Bible? Jesus' fleshly body or a fleshly resurrection?
That is, how does the ransom work?
Thanks in advance.
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin." Adam gave us all to sin and death. Even people that wish to be obedient to God, die due to the fact, "death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Romans 5:12
Jesus Christ's death releases God's obedient people from which Adam gave all mankind. "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." 1 Cor 15:21,22
Adam gave his perfect body and his blood to corruption/sin. This left all mankind in debt that no one could repay because a perfect body is beyond our reach to cover. (Ps 49:8) Jesus gave his perfect body, specifically his blood to pay that debt. "By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness." - Ephesians 1:7
If you'd like there is a 4 min video that goes into better detail.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... jesus-die/
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21512
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 814 times
- Been thanked: 1149 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #112They most certain are unless you are going to redefine what an individual is a "being" or a thing.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:11 am
God, The Holy Spirit, and The Word are not individuals.
Now you said ...
myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:11 amThey were two separate beings during Jesus' life on the earth.
So my question is previous to the point when "the Word became flesh" there were (I presume you believe) three seperate beings. But then,"the Word became flesh". My question is : At that moment did there become FOUR seperate beings? namely....
1. Almighty God the Father
2. The holy Spirit
3. The Word
4. "The Word became Flesh"
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7197
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 88 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #113Thanks, it appears that you believe Jesus' death on the cross saves believers.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:23 pmmyth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:42 am In a few words, what is the mechanism by which believers are saved.
That is, how does the ransom work?
I watched the video, and they stated that Jesus "gave His life as a ransom".
Are you and the video thus claiming that Jesus' death on the cross is the source of our salvation?
Thanks again.
Last edited by myth-one.com on Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14437
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 929 times
- Been thanked: 1680 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #114Then you don't really know do you. If you are not here to engage me in debating this, then I suggest you keep your personal comments to yourself, as they add nothing useful to the discussion.PinSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:48 amI'm not really arguing anything, William, and I'm not really warning against anything. I mean what I say in the same vein as what we read in Acts 5, where Gamaliel says, "...if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail..." Again, grace and peace to you.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14437
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 929 times
- Been thanked: 1680 times
- Contact:
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7197
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 88 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #116I can confirm at least those four. Satan and many angels are around along with all mankind.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:55 pmThey most certain are unless you are going to redefine what an individual is a "being" or a thing.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:11 am
God, The Holy Spirit, and The Word are not individuals.
Nos, you said ...
myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:11 amThey were two separate beings during Jesus' life on the earth.
So my question is previous to the point when "the Word became flesh" there were (I présumé you believe) three seperate beings. But then the Word became flesh at that moment did there become FOUR seperate beings, namely....
1. Almighty God the Father
2. The holy Spirit
3. The Word
4. "The Word became Flesh"
Can you confirme the above?
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21512
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 814 times
- Been thanked: 1149 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #117myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:16 pm
I can confirm at least those four. Satan and many angels are around along with all mankind.
myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:11 amThey were two separate beings during Jesus' life on the earth.
My question is previous to the point when "the Word became flesh" there were (I presume you believe) three seperate beings. But then,"the Word became flesh". My question is : At that moment did there become FOUR seperate beings? namely....CLARIFICATION: My question is restricted to God and the beings that where with Him in the beginning as described at John 1:1
1. Almighty God the Father
2. The holy Spirit
3. The Word
4. "The Word became Flesh"
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7197
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 88 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #118Yes, they were four separate beings.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:27 pmMy question is previous to the point when "the Word became flesh" there were (I presume you believe) three seperate beings. But then,"the Word became flesh". My question is : At that moment did there become FOUR seperate beings? namely....CLARIFICATION: My question is restricted to God and the beings that where with Him in the beginning as described at John 1:1
1. Almighty God the Father
2. The holy Spirit
3. The Word
4. "The Word became Flesh"
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21512
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 814 times
- Been thanked: 1149 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #119myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:07 pm
Are you and the video thus claiming that Jesus' death on the cross is the source of our salvation?
RELATED POSTE1 PETER 2:24 NIV
"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."
ISAIAH 53:5 ESV
But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:18 ERV
For the word of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God
HEBRESWS 10:5 ESV
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me
Is there biblical support for the idea of Christ providing a RANSOM for mankind?
viewtopic.php?p=961608#p961608
To learn more please go to other posts related to
SIN, THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed May 05, 2021 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21512
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 814 times
- Been thanked: 1149 times
- Contact:
Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
Post #120myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:52 pmYes, they were four separate beings.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:27 pmMy question is previous to the point when "the Word became flesh" there were (I presume you believe) three seperate beings. But then,"the Word became flesh". My question is : At that moment did there become FOUR seperate beings? namely....CLARIFICATION: My question is restricted to God and the beings that where with Him in the beginning as described at John 1:1
1. Almighty God the Father
2. The holy Spirit
3. The Word
4. "The Word became Flesh"
So at a particular point in time, THE WORD went from being one distinct intelligent being, to TWO distinct intelligent beings. Does that second individual being still exist as a distinct intelligent being?
WRITTEN AROUND 98 CE
A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,+ to show his slaves+ the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,+ 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8