Today's Excellent Church.

[Benson]

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #144]

I object to being considered the harlot as well as JW's taking the Bible we have given them and changing it to fit their own theology and then calling us the false prophet.

We we can each appreciate we do not like having shadows cast upon us. I don't appreciate being called a heretic, but it happens.

Gotta roll with it. No point in being upset about it. I do not use such spell-casting myself. People believe what they will and their beliefs will take them where they will...it will be all sorted eventually.



Universal Balance and Harmony.

[RightReason]

[Replying to William in post #144]

I object to being considered the harlot as well as JW's taking the Bible we have given them and changing it to fit their own theology and then calling us the false prophet.

We we can each appreciate we do not like having shadows cast upon us. I don't appreciate being called a heretic, but it happens.

Gotta roll with it. No point in being upset about it. I do not use such spell-casting myself. People believe what they will and their beliefs will take them where they will...it will be all sorted eventually.



Universal Balance and Harmony.

Yes, William I suppose you are right. I'm out of town this weekend so can't respond like I would like to to JW and Onewithhim. What they say is inaccurate.

[RightReason]

RightReason: So, an indicator of a false religion isn't false prophecies? Be aware of false prophets? An indicator of a false religion isn't adding to or changing Sacred Scripture?


Yes all those things would be I believe be adulterating the truth found in God's word and symtomatic of spiritual uncleaness.

Well, then I don’t think all of JW’s failed prophesies bode well for them. Nor do I think all these adding to and changing translations would be appropriate . . .


“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – KJV

“Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – NWT



“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name” Philippians 2:9 – KJV

“For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” Philippians 2:9 – NWT



“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” -KJV

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. The New World Translation



NWT: And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].

KJV: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


NWT: Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.”

KJV: Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.



NWT: Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

NIV: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”


KJV: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Acts 20:28
NWT: Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].


KJV: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


There are more, but I’ll leave it at that.

JW's ... deny the divine nature of Jesus -- .
We most certainly do not deny ; Jehovah's Witnesses hold to the scriptural understanding of Jesus nature and origins.

They hold to their unique Scriptural understanding which is not the understanding of Christ’s established Church.

JW's do not teach the Trinity ...

No we certainly do not! Its a pagan teaching which is both unscriptural and God dishonoring.


RightReason wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:12 pm-- something all of Christendom taught from the get go


While Christendom has indeed taught the TRINITY from its conception, there is no indication it was part of the belief system of True Christianity as practiced by the first century followers of Christ.

Aaaaaaaaaah yes, “True Christianity” that followed . . . to believe that makes Jesus a liar. Jesus established His Church and said He would remain with her. He didn’t say I’m building my church, but it’s actually a sham, my real church won’t pop up until I send Charles Taze Russell to tell y’all about it in the 1600’s, so sit tight.

Also, there is tons of Scriptural evidence for the Trinity.

RightReason wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:12 pmI think JW's need to take a serious look at themselves and stop calling g everyone else the whore of Babylon.
I dont believe I asked for your opinion, but thanks for sharing. As it is, we will continue to expose what we see as false teachings until our Leader tells us to stop.

We do NOT call "everyone" the whore of babylon, we hold that THE WHORE OF BABYLON is a fitting metaphor for all false religions and unless someone believes their own religion is false I cannot see why anyone should take offense.

Because your fellow JW, Onewithhim, called out my Church, named it, as well as naming a few other groups. . . .

Onewithhim: “Now, the Harlot refers to not just the Catholic Church but all religions that claim to be worshiping the one true God but are not, and they show this by their works. It can easily be seen that the RCC has had very bad works throughout history, but not just them. Protestants, Orthodox, Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, B'Hai, Buddhists, various far Eastern religions, Judaism......all of them show works that are far from what Jesus taught.”

I object to being considered the harlot ...

If someone considers you a harlot it certainly wouldn't be one of Jehovahs Witnesses since we dont believe Babylon the Great pictures any one individual. We believe it is a metaphore for the world empire of false religion ( the instituitions not the individuals therein).

LOL! Yeah, I got that. You’re all about technicalities. “Gee Mom, I didn’t call sis a whore, I just said the group she associates with is a whore”

We generally do not see the need to name any specific group or religion as our goal is always to teach what is true and false from the bible and let people decide for themselves if the cap fits.

Great! Of course, you have to be interpreting the Bible correctly to be able to know what is true and what is false. Any group that has to change, add to, or alter Sacred Scripture to make their point is something a person might want to look out for. A person might also want to look out for those who make predictions that then don’t come true. The Bible warned us about things like that. The Bible also reveals to us that God is the father, son, and holy spirit, so any group who denies that should be considered in error.

Holy scripture was given to mankind by Almighty God though his inspired servants. I dont know who the "we" you are referring to is but no individual or group of individuals can legitimately lay claim to have given us the bible.

Jesus established His Church and His Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit compiled the Bible. So yes, the Catholic Church can legitimately lay claim to having compiled the Bible as we know it today.

[RightReason]

JWs have made NO false prophecies.

Not according to your history.

A few times what was said concerning warnings or explanations was not correct, but that is not false prophesying.

That is exactly false prophesying. Your group falsely declared end times. Also, it should bother you that your church can err in her teachings. How do you know when they are right and when they are wrong?

JWs have NOT added to or changed Scripture, as many religions have, including the RCC.

Not the Catholic Church. Show me otherwise. I have already listed many times in this thread all the changing JW’s have done.

JWs go back to the earliest known manuscripts and have translated from those

I know that’s what they tell you. They are falsely translating by the way, the Bible given to you by my Church.

The New World Translation is the best Bible translation

I realize that’s what it says on the Watchtower report, but not according to most Bible scholars.

Christendom may have taught the God-ship of Jesus, but Christians didn't teach that from the get go.

Yes, they did. We can know this from historical records as well as evidence from Scripture as well as evidence from Tradition.

That false teaching started up near the end of the first century, and became somewhat entrenched when the pagan Constantine decided that it would be part of the official doctrine, in 325 AD.

The whole Constantine accusations are anti-Catholic propaganda and you clearly do not understand history.

The Catholic Church itself stated that the Trinity was not firmly entrenched until around the 8th century.

“Truths become dogma when they are disputed” -G. K. Chesterton.

In other words, the reason something needs declared or officially clarified is precisely because it has been a long-standing truth that is suddenly being challenged and causing confusion. There is no need to declare something if it is already being believed and taught.

There was so Diety of Jesus there, nor any Trinity.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.” -Exodus 3:14

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” -John 8:58

[JehovahsWitness]

Well, then I don’t think all of JW’s failed prophesies bode well for them.

Jehovah's Witnesses have never made any prophecies, false or true.

Like many others all we have ever done is share our understanding of already existing biblical prophecies. Sometimes we get things right, sometimes we get things wrong. But we are not Catholics and none of us claim infallibility.

If you would like to try and prove me wrong on this be my guest, you can find everything we have ever published on the Internet. Please include a screenshot or a reference to the official source.


JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE 2ND COMING and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

[RightReason]

Like many others all we have ever done is share our understanding of already existing biblical prophecies. Sometimes we get things right, sometimes we get things wrong.

Sure. And I don’t mean to upset you, but wouldn’t you want to be a part of Christ’s established Church who Jesus promised He would remain with and guide in all truth? Wouldn’t you want to be a part of the Church He said, “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven”, “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven him. Whose sins you retain, they are retained.” Wouldn’t you want to be part of His Church which Scripture declares as ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’?

But we are not Catholics and none of us claim infallibility.

True. Only the Catholic Church can claim infallibility and that’s the point. Why do other groups doubt Jesus’ word?

If Christ’s Church is not infallible when it comes to teachings on matters of faith, what is the point? Jesus wanted One, Holy, Catholic (universal), and Apostolic Church that we could turn to. Otherwise, the church is reduced to private/personal interpretation and results in disunity, chaos, and error. That simply doesn’t make sense.

If you would like to try and prove me wrong on this be my guest

Prove you wrong about what? That your church has gotten Christ’s teachings wrong? I agree. Prove you wrong that the Catholic Church claims to be Christ’s one true Church on earth? Again, I agree.

you can find everything we have ever published on the Internet. Please include a screenshot or a reference to the official source.

Yes, so the errors are in full view and I have posted now several times some of the discrepancies of JW’s.

Again, I encourage you to take all of this to your prayer life. Why are you convinced JW’s are where it’s at? It is simply an illogical conclusion.

[JehovahsWitness]

Prove you wrong about what?

That Jehovah's Witnesses have ever made false PROPHECIES.

Well, then I don’t think all of JW’s failed prophesies bode well for them.

Jehovah's Witnesses have never made a failed PROPHECY because we do not, and have never prophecied. Would you like to challenge me on that?








JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE 2ND COMING and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

[PinSeeker]

Some things to think about:

I think we would all agree that we do not want to be a part of groups whose belief systems and practices deviate significantly from and often contradict the Holy Scriptures. A simple and often cited approach to identifying characteristics, or patterns, of these groups is the use of the terminology of mathematics: add, subtract, multiply, and divide:

ADD -- Are extra-biblical revelations or other books needed to understand the Bible or cited as the source of doctrine? These are often viewed as being superior to the Bible. A variation of this characteristic is that the Bible is declared to be accurate and complete, but that it can only be understood properly by the interpretations provided by the group’s leader or the organization.

SUBTRACT -- Does the group devalue Jesus Christ by denying His deity? The same question applies regarding the Holy Spirit. When what the Scriptures say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are studied, one finds that each is called “God” (2 Corinthians 1:3; John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8; Romans 9:5; Acts 5:3–4) and each manifests the attributes of deity.

MULTIPLY -- Does the group multiply the requirements for salvation? Is salvation that is dependent on membership in the organization and certain required rituals a denial of justification by faith? Is salvation either uncertain or merely a future thing? Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:8-10, and Titus 3:5 clearly show the error of groups that do any of these things. Additionally, faith equals salvation plus works, rather than "faith plus works equals salvation." Scripture is clear that good works are the result of God’s grace; they do not earn salvation (Galatians 5:22–25).

DIVIDE -- Does the organization claim to be the only one that has the truth? Does it claim it is God’s sole channel or only true church? As a result, are all other religious organizations to be rejected as false? If a person leaves the group is salvation lost?

There are some other important characteristics to consider:

DOCTRINAL AMBIGUITY -- Are the teachings of the group characterized by doctrinal ambiguity or uncertainty? Are doctrines presented as revealed by God, or as “due- time” light, later rejected or replaced by new understandings?

FALSE PROPHECY -- Does a study of the group’s history reveal that its leaders have pronounced or promoted false prophecies? This was done either by new revelations or by speculations based on erroneous interpretations of Scripture. According to the Bible, these failures clearly identify a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:21–22).

Grace and peace to all.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why are you convinced JW’s are where it’s at?

I do not understand the question. It seems to allude to my conviction about Jehovah's Witnesses, but what is unclean. What would you like to know about my conviction?



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[RightReason]

Jehovah's Witnesses have never made a failed PROPHECY because we do not, and have never prophecied. Would you like to challenge me on that?

Yes. I challenge on the grounds, “if it acts like a duck and walks like a duck, it is probably a duck”

It is very convenient to make prophecies and then when they don’t come true back peddle and claim we were wrong so I take back the prediction.