Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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We_Are_VENOM
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Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #1

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

I think it is important all Christians ask ourselves that question. Lets get right into it.

My former view: The “Passover is for the Jews, but I am a Christian”. My view was, the Passover was just a Jewish thing, along with many of the other holy days/festivals of the old testament.

My view was also that the old testament is a rich source of great history pertaining to God and how he dealt with his chosen people. However, most of that stuff didn’t translate over to Christianity, which is the “new stuff”…the “new covenant” with Jesus Christ.

Well, that is what I used to think..however…

What had happened was: Over the past 3 years (on and off), I’ve been partaking in Bible studies with a particular Christian denomination. They called themselves World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG). I had never heard of them until recent, and if you aren’t familiar with them, they have a very unorthodox way of Bible interpretation and with that comes, of course, very “wacky” Biblical doctrines.

For example, their most infamous doctrine is perhaps the teaching that there is a “Mother” God, along with God the “Father”. Need I say more? (and that isn’t even the tip of the iceberg).

Another thing that stands out, is that they are somehow/someway able to translate a lot of Old Testament teachings over to the New Testament…and after studying with them, you will find yourself not being able to take almost anything literally in the Bible…because with them, they take even basic Biblical teachings in some symbolic or metaphorical way.

Now, I said all of that to say this; me and a particular fellow (lets call him Ollie) from the WMSCOG have been studying off and on for the past 3 years. We’ve had long, mentally DRAINING discussions…our discussions include questions like..

1. Is Ahn Sahng-hong (their church founder) Jesus Christ? It is what they believe.

2. Is baptism required for salvation? It is what they believe.

3. Is there a “Mother” God? It is what they believe.

4. Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same person? It is what they believe.

5. Is the commemoration/celebration of the Passover a requirement for salvation? It is what they believe.

That being said, I found myself disagreeing with all 5 of those. But what I can’t deny is, the fact that on most of the conversations that me and Ollie have had, Ollie has made compelling Biblical cases for almost all of those topics.

I’ve found myself admitting (even to him), that “even though I disagree with you, I can see where you are coming from”.

Now, this thread is being created based on something that he was able to convince me of, which is that Christians should celebrate the Passover…now, is the Passover a requirement for salvation? I have mixed views on this, depending on the day.

However, I am convinced that the Passover is a commandment by God, not just to the Jews, but for Christians as well.

Ollie was able to convince me by taking old testament scriptures, and harmonizing them with new testament verses…and making it all one cohesive unit.

After putting up so much resistance to his case, I finally had to bow down to the truth of the matter, in the affirmative.

Some of you may already be familiar with his case, but I certainly was not. Apparently, I need to read my Bible more. I mean, I thought I knew my Bible..but there are levels to this.

So, what was his case? See below…
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Jesus commanded his disciples to commemorate his death and showed them how. He did not command them to continue to celebrate the Passover so there is no reason to conclude Christians need to do so.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS
To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM , PASSOVER and ... THE MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #12

Post by 1213 »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:14 pm ...
1. Is Ahn Sahng-hong (their church founder) Jesus Christ? It is what they believe.

2. Is baptism required for salvation? It is what they believe.

3. Is there a “Mother” God? It is what they believe.

4. Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same person? It is what they believe.

5. Is the commemoration/celebration of the Passover a requirement for salvation? It is what they believe.
...
1. Not by what I know.

2. Not by what the Bible tells. Baptism with water had one purpose and it was to make person a disciple of Jesus.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

But, there is also another baptism:

… He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Matt. 3:11

3. Not by what the Bible tells. Bible says there is only one true God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

4. Bible doesn’t say they are the same person. Jesus said the Father is greater than him. To me that is one reason to think they are not the same.

… the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

5. I have understood salvation means that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgement that would come because of sin. There is no requirement for forgiveness, but the eternal life is only promised for righteous. So, if one is not righteous, there should happen a change in “heart” so that person becomes righteous. And I believe, if person is righteous, he loves God and wants to keep his commandments freely.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Righteous.html

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #13

Post by benchwarmer »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:00 am Jesus commanded his disciples to commemorate his death and showed them how. He did not command them to continue to celebrate the Passover so there is no reason to conclude Christians need to do so.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS
To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM , PASSOVER and ... THE MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
Jesus also said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Thus, your argument from silence is shown to be wrong. Jesus also didn't command anyone to NOT engage in homosexual activity. So I guess that's fine now for all Christians? Before you quote me any Bible passages against homosexuality, make sure they have "Jesus said ... " in them.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:54 am ... your argument from silence is shown to be wrong.
The evidence against the obligation for Christians to keep the PASSOVER is as follows:


1. The requirement to observe the Passover was part of the Mosaic law given only to the nation of Israel (Psalms 147:20). Non-Israelites were never under obligation to keep Passover.

2. The Mosaic law was abolished following the death of Christ (Eph 2:15
Col 3:13,14)

3. Arguably Christ's own commemoration would replace the annual observance of the Passover for Christians (1 Cor 5:7b)

4. When the issue arose amongst the fledging congregation as to what if anything from the Mosaic law was to be carried over to gentile Christians, the church leaders made no mention of the observation of the Passover (Acts 15)


JW




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Romans 14:8

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #15

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm The Bible says what it says, and any confusion as to what is meant upon what it says, comes as a result of our own misunderstandings.
You continue to make my point. If the Bible is the word of God, why should there be any misunderstandings? Is God not familiar with what would be clear to us?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm As long as I have Jesus, I am never on my own.

Second, when I pick and choose, I dont do so based on personal convenience or preference..but based on what I genuinely believe is the right choice.
And your beliefs are based on...?

I understand you are simply doing your best to do the right thing. That's great. However, trying to base that on the Bible is clearly a minefield since it is neither concise, nor clear.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm Hey, I am just going by what the Bible says.

Don't kill the messenger.
Not trying to kill the messenger. The entire point of this topic is to discuss what the Bible says. Obviously it's not clear in many areas. That's the entire problem.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm Any hunter will tell you that the fun is in the actual "hunt".

No fun in having a deer knock on your front door and saying "Dinner is on me tonight".

Having these studies helps, not only for Christian brotherhood and fellowship, but also allows me/us to feel closer to God.
That's sounds all fine and dandy, but apparently our eternal souls are on the line. There is no 'fun' involved here, this should be serious business if it's true.

You are essentially saying that God has made it complicated so we can have fellowship and feel close to God (and maybe have some fun). The sheer number of differing Christian denominations all trying to do this very thing and coming up with often very different answers should tell you something.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm Please, no discussions on morality here. I dont think you want those problems, amigo.
I'm not sure what problems you seem to be hinting at. Was that a threat? I'm not even sure how that relates to what I said, but anyway, moving on.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm 1. If there was a better way to do it, God would have done it that way.
So you assert. The problem is I've already shown 2 better ways and I came up with those in 2 minutes. An actual god would likely put my ideas to shame and have something truly spectacular that doesn't involve slaughtering children and livestock.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm 2. I'm still trying to figure out what part of "all life belongs to God", and "all the children were saved" dont you understand.
And I'm trying to sort out why you think God would bother with all this if simply killing everyone himself will save everyone. That's a pretty simple plan no? 100% success rate at saving everyone. Instead we have these contorted apologetics that try to sweep under the carpet anything the god of the Bible does that is clearly the musings of blood thirsty men.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm 3. Instead of concerning yourself about the children, perhaps you should concern yourself about your own salvation, or lack thereof.
More veiled threats? I'm not concerned per se about the children, just the obvious dichotomy of a loving god and the slaughter of children and livestock. An all powerful God could accomplish the same tasks without subjecting humans to all the trauma of killing. See my suggestions above. I'm partial to the instantaneous moving of all his people to a new land with no death. Can you imagine the look on the Egyptians faces? All their labor force gone in the blink of an eye and later reports of them living in splendor in Israel. No one would doubt the power of this god with such wonderous feats.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:08 pm 4. You sure speak with a lot of conviction, involving what you believe to be a fictional character (God) A little bit of anger and a LOT of disdain. Hmm.
And you seem to be imagining emotion where there is none. Just because I point out fatal flaws does not mean I'm angry. Who exactly is it you think I'm angry at? God? I'm an atheist so fail there. You? Not at all, just debating. Myself? Nope, I'm much happier now as an atheist. No more trying to sort out which cryptic law of god I might be breaking at any given time.

As for disdain, you got me there. I have no respect for the writers of these obviously fictional stories trying to portray these atrocities on an all knowing, loving god. It's clear they didn't think these stories through. Like I said, if there is a god, the fact that I reject this and other similar stories is something I will be proud of. I don't think a wonderful god would employ such obviously human tactics. If I'm wrong, I only had the best picture of what a god would be like and refused to believe what I feel would be insulting.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #16

Post by benchwarmer »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:14 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:54 am ... your argument from silence is shown to be wrong.
The evidence against the obligation for Christians to keep the PASSOVER is as follows:


1. The requirement to observe the Passover was part of the Mosaic law given only to the nation of Israel (Psalms 147:20). Non-Israelites were never under obligation to keep Passover.

2. The Mosaic law was abolished following the death of Christ (Eph 2:15
Col 3:13,14)

3. Arguably Christ's own commemoration would replace the annual observance of the Passover for Christians (1 Cor 5:7b)

4. When the issue arose amongst the fledging congregation as to what if anything from the Mosaic law was to be carried over to gentile Christians, the church leaders made no mention of the observation of the Passover (Acts 15)
And all of that still ignores Matthew 5:18. Which law exactly do you think Jesus was referring to if not the original Mosaic law? Jesus himself apparently cleared the matter up with Matthew 5:18, but church leaders and writings from others in Christianity override that? Interesting.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #17

Post by William »

benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:44 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:14 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:54 am ... your argument from silence is shown to be wrong.
The evidence against the obligation for Christians to keep the PASSOVER is as follows:


1. The requirement to observe the Passover was part of the Mosaic law given only to the nation of Israel (Psalms 147:20). Non-Israelites were never under obligation to keep Passover.

2. The Mosaic law was abolished following the death of Christ (Eph 2:15
Col 3:13,14)

3. Arguably Christ's own commemoration would replace the annual observance of the Passover for Christians (1 Cor 5:7b)

4. When the issue arose amongst the fledging congregation as to what if anything from the Mosaic law was to be carried over to gentile Christians, the church leaders made no mention of the observation of the Passover (Acts 15)
And all of that still ignores Matthew 5:18. Which law exactly do you think Jesus was referring to if not the original Mosaic law? Jesus himself apparently cleared the matter up with Matthew 5:18, but church leaders and writings from others in Christianity override that? Interesting.
Just a reminder of evidence re the subject which is not directly sourced in the Bible.



In all cases we have to regard scientific evidence as more authoritative than the Bible IF said evidence shows this to be the case.

Re said evidence, it supports that the biblical stories prior to The Passover are later additions which were created [procured] in order to give some relative context to the formation of Israel as "chosen by the 'One True God'" - being freed from slavery to Egypt was huge burden to come out from under, but it happened in far more a natural way than the story unfolds as told by the newly-freed. The Egyptian Empire crumbled under the weight of its own processes and simply had to withdraw from lands/people it previous held captive.

As was later evident, Israel itself did not fall far from the tree and adopted many habits they had learned while in slavery, and placed these upon the image of their own God.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:35 pm
In all cases we have to regard scientific evidence as more authoritative than the Bible IF said evidence shows this to be the case.
We do? Says who?!










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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:44 pm
And all of that still ignores Matthew 5:18. ...
Matthew 5:18 does not contradict my post.


Matthew 5:18 does not say the MOSAIC LAW would never pass away, it says it would not pass away until it was all fulfilled.
MATTHEW 5:18 - NWT

Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place
.
At Christ's death "all things" [as in all the prophecies required for the Messiah's earthly mission] did indeed take place. It was thus time for the Mosaic law to "pass away"



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #20

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:35 pm
William wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:35 pm
In all cases we have to regard scientific evidence as more authoritative than the Bible IF said evidence shows this to be the case.
We do? Says who?!
Say's The Truth.

Did you watch the video which accompanied my comment?

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