Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi
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Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

The Jews to whom they were first preached the good news of the Kingdom already knew who God is. Jesus and his apostles were Jews, so they knew it too. The OT is full of references to the person of God and his personal name, so Jews were considered His witnesses (Is. 43:10-12). Jesus even told the Jews that the One they believed to be their God was his own Father.

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Although Jesus mentioned his Father to them many times, he had to make them understand that he was the Messiah that Jehovah had promised before, but they did not believe him. In time it began to be preached to non-Jews who believed in many gods, and who had no idea of the importance of God's Messiah.

What God did Judeo-Christians speak to non-Jews when Christian congregations began to form in the first century? Did they talk about Jehovah, or did they forget about him? Can a worshiper of Jehovah forget his God?

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:23 pm That Scripture has been tampered with, and that can be proven by examining many other translations that use the original Greek rather than the King James Version (which went with the Latin).
Right, by the WTS. Sure. That's the point. Or one of them, anyway. Thanks for reiterating it, although you have it backwards.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #32

Post by Eloi »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:20 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:23 pm That Scripture has been tampered with, and that can be proven by examining many other translations that use the original Greek rather than the King James Version (which went with the Latin).
Right, by the WTS. Sure. That's the point. Or one of them, anyway. Thanks for reiterating it, although you have it backwards.

Grace and peace to you.
This topic IS NOT about our organization.

Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Of course they did. Speaking about Jehovah, the God of the Jews, Paul said:

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.

When Christians in the first century brought the good news of the kingdom to non-Jews, they spoke to them of one God: Jehovah ... not a trinity of gods like the pagan trinities that everyone knew well in those days.

Does Christendom speak to its followers of the same God that Christians originally preached? NO, not about that same God, but about another one that they invented over time.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #33

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm It would be very productive for you to consider your own beliefs objectively...
Right back atcha (again), Eloi. But just considering it -- in any way -- is not going to do it. Read on...
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm ...without prejudging yourself...
LOL! I... don't even know what this means... I mean, I do, but... Well... LOL!
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm ...the things I am trying to help you understand just because I am a Jehovah's Witness.
No thanks. And see, that's the problem, really. The Word of God stands on its own, and the Holy Spirit either works through its proclamation or not, per the will of the Father. So, as I have said many times before (to others, at least, but now you, if I haven't before), my job is only to proclaim. Whether or not you really come to understand is not up to me, not something I can make happen. Have you ever heard the phrase "ordinary means of grace" before, Eloi? No matter whether you have or not, really.

Even so, you say you are "trying to help..." It's a strange sort of "help," it seems to me. LOL! You know, being so mean-spirited, angry, and... Well, I'll leave it at that, except to say that I don't think Jehovah would be happy with your manner of "helping."
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm If Jehovah, the Father of Jesus (as you yourself recognize) were "triune" then it would not be a trinity but a quint-unity: three in Jehovah (the Father) and then the Christ-god and then the other anonymous person that you add ... They add up to five, not three.
Oh, my. Never heard that nonsense before. Is that what you call "logic?" LOL! Oh, well. Now I have, I guess...
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm You cannot identify the Father, Jehovah, with the Trinity, to continue complicating that bizarre doctrine of three gods in one God.
The Father identifies Himself with Jehovah (as you will certainly agree), but Jesus, during His life on earth, identifies Himself intensely with the Father -- over and over and over again; and others acknowledge it -- in word and deed, even assigning Himself the very Name of God (Jehovah). But like I said, whether the Spirit works in your heart or not regarding this and other matters is not up to me. I merely proclaim it and pray that the Father would will it and the Spirit would make it happen at the appointed time (if there is one... which, if the Father wills it, there will be, of course).

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #34

Post by Eloi »

Obviously, you got another non-biblical version of god ... and it is not the one that Jesus or any other Christian-Jew of the first century talked about. We, Jehovah's Witnesses, do not use the Scriptures to speculate, inventing strange gods that neither Jesus or his followers taught. WE teach what they taught. For example:

We can also identify Jehovah in the Christian Greek Scriptures if we compare the following two passages:

Ps. 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
And the ends of the earth as your possession.

Heb. 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Who is the God of whom Heb.1:1 speaks?
Whose "heir" is Jesus according to the Scriptures?

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm This topic IS NOT about our organization.
Not directly, no. I'm not the one who brought that up...
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?
I think I answered this in the affirmative at least once. Oh yes, I said (and I quote), way back in Post 2, "Yes. Jesus said (and showed, in deed) He was/is Jehovah, and His disciples proclaimed Him to be Jehovah. So, yes, He... and they... did."
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm Of course they did.
Yup.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm Speaking about Jehovah, the God of the Jews, Paul said:

Rom. 3:29  "Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith."
Ah! Such a great passage. In that very passage (vv.24-25), Paul speaks of Christ Jesus, "Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood... to show God's righteousness..." So God appeased Himself -- 'propitiation' means appeasement -- which no mere man can do. We see this back in Genesis 15, in God's covenant with Abram, in which God laid His own responsibility of death upon Himself if He failed to keep it the covenant perfectly AND Abram's (and his offspring's) responsibility of death upon Himself upon Himself if he (Abram and his offspring) failed to keep the covenant. God had caused Abram to fall into a deep sleep, and it was God alone Who passed between the animal halves, right? So then, fast-forward to the crucifixion of Christ Jesus -- God fulfilled His covenant with Abram, paying the price Himself, in the Person of Jesus, for Abram's and his offspring's failure. Paul referred directly to Abraham and his and his offspring's justification by faith, which must be in Jesus (Romans 3:26), starting three verses later (Romans 4:1).

And this is the very same Paul who, In Colossians 2, said that "...in Him..." -- Christ -- "...the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..." Yes, Paul knew exactly who Jesus was (and is), God made man, God in the flesh.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm When Christians in the first century brought the good news of the kingdom to non-Jews, they spoke to them of one God: Jehovah...
That they did, because, like Peter, it had been revealed to them not by flesh and blood but by the Father. Agree.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm ...not a trinity of gods like the pagan trinities that everyone knew well in those days.
Ahhhh, now. See above. It is true that the idea of trinities and triads of gods existed in ancient cultures. Sumeria, Babylonia, India, Greece, Egypt... Sure. But I, along with many others, would say -- in the words of this same Paul we're talking about, actually -- that what can be known about God is plain to even the unrighteous, because God has shown it to them (Romans 1:19). Now, this is a different thing, but the principle is the same: Unbelievers will point to biblical stories like Noah's flood and say many cultures had myths of a flood, and the Christian story of Noah is just another of those myths. However, the fact that there are so many cultures which had such similar "legends," if you will, really actually speaks to the fact that there really was a flood that destroyed everything. In the same way, the fact that so many ancient cultures had trinitarian or triadic gods actually speaks to the fact that God is a trinity, that there is a triune Jehovah, the one true God. You will (unfortunately) not accept that, of course... or maybe you will at some point, if the Sprit works in your heart.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pm Does Christendom speak to its followers of the same God that Christians originally preached? NO, not about that same God, but about another one that they invented over time.
Nah, this is just another false WTS talking point. See above.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #36

Post by Eloi »

There are still many more ways to identify Jehovah as the God mentioned by Jesus and the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures. One of them is the application of the following text from the pre-Christian Scriptures:

Ps. 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father. ... "

That is the same Psalm the apostles mentioned in their prayer to God in Acts. 4: 23-30, but look now at God's decree on Jesus, whom he names as his Son, and defines him as his Only Begotten Son, a very special one for Him, and who is also his Firstborn.

Who is it that says that Jesus is his Son? And who is this that is showing us what the decree of Jehovah was?

Speaking about who identified Jesus as His own Son and High Priest, Paul told us:

Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.”

Several times Jehovah spoke from heaven about his Son Jesus; among them in the event of his baptism and in the transfiguration.

Luk. 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.”

About the voice that Peter heard during the transfiguration of Jesus, he said:

2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.
19 Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

The trinity is a god alien to the Christians who learned of Jesus in the first century; the first of them, and who became the leaders of later preaching, were Jews. The triune god was invented by non-Jews several years later.

PD: My recommendation is that each reader find and study a biblical version that clearly conveys the personal name of the God that the Jews worshiped (including the Jewish Jesus and his first followers, who were also Jews). If it turns out that the version you use does not have the Name, do not look for a justification for that: God wants his Name to be known everywhere and he made it clear when he made it be mentioned about 7000 times in his Written Word, the Bible. Wherever you see the four Hebrew letters, if it isn't, write them: YHWH or JHVH, because God made it be written so that everyone would know clearly who the God and Father of Jesus is.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:47 pm Obviously, you got another non-biblical version of god...
Nope. You're welcome to think that if you want...

There is absolutely nothing in Psalm 2 (or anywhere else, including Hebrews 1) to deny that God exists in three Persons Unless it's read into it, of course, which is... a no-no. But suit yourself.

Regarding Hebrews 1 specifically, God's Word, Whom Jesus is (John 1) cannot be separated from the one -- in this case, the One -- who issues/sends -- speaks -- it. Yes, God formerly spoke through the prophets -- God spoke directly to the prophets, and the prophets related what God had said to our fathers at His direction (this was the job of the prophets, what it actually means to be a prophet -- not jsut a "predicter of the future," as many think), for sure. But in these last days, there is no "go-between," or "liaison." God has spoken to us by His Son, Who Himself is the Speaker and Doer.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #38

Post by Eloi »

The words "messiah" and "christ" mean the same thing: "anointed".

Implicit in the definition of these synonyms is the fact that an anointed one, Christ or Messiah, cannot in any way be the same person who anoints.

It was Jehovah WHO anointed Jesus:

Luke 4:16 He then went to Nazʹa·reth, where he had been brought up, and according to his custom on the Sabbath day, he entered the synagogue and stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled".

Is. 61:1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,
Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek.
He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,
2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill (...)

So did Jesus Christ ever believe that he himself was Jehovah? The simple idea is laughable.
Jesus and his disciples taught others that Jehovah is their only God.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #39

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:02 pm My recommendation is that each reader find and study a biblical version that clearly conveys the personal name of the God that the Jews worshiped (including the Jewish Jesus and his first followers, who were also Jews).
Mine, too. But they all do, actually, it's just that some interpret them wrongly. As I said before to one of your brethren, who brought up a work by Jason BeDuhn as an "excellent non-JW source" for research, even BeDuhn himself, in that very work, says:
  • "The inconsistency of the NWT translators in not using "Jehovah" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 1 Peter 2:3, and 1 Peter 3:15 shows that interpretation rather than a principle of translation is involved in deciding where to use 'Jehovah.' ... Once we recognize that interpretation is involved, and see three examples where this interpretation has led the translators not to use 'Jehovah,' we must wonder if they have been correct to use it in all seventy of those other occurrences. ... By moving beyond translation of the Greek to an interpretation, the translator ventures from the bedrock of the text to the shifting sands of opinion."
We can leave it at that, I think. But you may disagree... :D

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #40

Post by Eloi »

We can find the personal name of God in many places of the Bible, where He says "THIS IS MY NAME"; Look up that expression in your Bible as an exercise and learn the truth.

Jehovah also said to his worshipers:

Deut. 5:11 “‘You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave anyone unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way."

Jesus knows exactly Who God is, and His name. He spoke about God's name to his disciples, and said that God sent him with a message. Obviously, Jesus never though God has a different name that the one He says Himself so many times before.

John 17:6 “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. 7 Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those whom you have given me, because they are yours; 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them."

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