#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[Miles]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

Unlike the KJV not all bibles say he was to be tortured.

EHV
His master was angry and handed him over to the jailers until he could pay back everything he owed.

ESV
And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.

GNT
The king was very angry, and he sent the servant to jail to be punished until he should pay back the whole amount.”

ICB
The master was very angry, and he put the servant in prison to be punished. The servant had to stay in prison until he could pay everything he owed.

ISV
In anger his master handed him over to the jailers until he could repay the entire debt.

PHILLIPS
Then his master called him in. “‘You wicked servant!’ he said. ‘Didn’t I cancel all that debt when you begged me to do so? Oughtn’t you to have taken pity on your fellow-servant as I, your master, took pity on you? And his master in anger handed him over to the gaolers till he should repay the whole debt. This is how my Heavenly Father will treat you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.”

MEV
His master was angry and delivered him to the jailers until he should pay all his debt.

NCV
The master was very angry and put the servant in prison to be punished until he could pay everything he owed.

NMB
And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all that was due to him.

OJB
And in charon af (wrath), his adon handed the debtor over to the keepers of the beit hasohar until the debtor should repay the entire choiv (debt).

RGT
“So his lord was angry, and delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all that was due to him.

RSV
And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.

WE
His master was very angry. He turned the servant over to the prison guards until he could pay all he owed him.

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

The Devil will be "tormented" only in the sense that he is RESTRAINED from doing anything. In fact, he is annihilated forever.

.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

Good counterpoint. Jails aren't happy places, however. Glad to know God doesn't necessarily insist on torture at this verse.

I went to biblehub and there are plenty of translations that uses torturers.

https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/18-34.htm

So I think it is an unpleasant experience regardless of the level of torture involved.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Tcg in post #9]

You could be right. Matthew 18:15-20 deals with a sinning brother and outlines a methodology of how to deal with their sin with escalating responses personal talk, small group talk then church then banishment. And it flows onto this parable in the conversation.

But I don't think that outweighs my point.

* Jesus switches from brother to servant to highlight that we are to forgive as the King forgave us. I don't think Jesus is asking me to only forgive Christians but to grind out every last penny I am owed from non-Christians.

* In a Kingdom we are all servants, some may hate the king, some may not, but we are all servants.

* Even if the parable in this thread was only for brothers and not for all people, if that is how God treats his servants, how much worse would he treat non-servants.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #9]

You could be right. Matthew 18:15-20 deals with a sinning brother and outlines a methodology of how to deal with their sin with escalating responses personal talk, small group talk then church then banishment. And it flows onto this parable in the conversation.

But I don't think that outweighs my point.

* Jesus switches from brother to servant to highlight that we are to forgive as the King forgave us. I don't think Jesus is asking me to only forgive Christians but to grind out every last penny I am owed from non-Christians.

Given that he doesn't mention non-Christians, he couldn't possibly be recommending this.

* In a Kingdom we are all servants, some may hate the king, some may not, but we are all servants.

You're forgetting that not all are citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

* Even if the parable in this thread was only for brothers and not for all people, if that is how God treats his servants, how much worse would he treat non-servants.

There's no "if" about it, it is only for brothers/servants. There is absolutely no mention of non-servants so no conclusions about their treatment can be reached on the basis of this passage.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

1. Its just a story, not to be taken literally
2. In the story the wicked slave isnt killed
3. A "torturer"was another word for jailor





JW

[Wootah]

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

1. Its just a story, not to be taken literally
2. In the story the wicked slave isnt killed
3. A "torturer"was another word for jailor





JW

Jesus took it pretty seriously (v35). I think I'll listen to him on this one.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. Its just a story, not to be taken literally
2. In the story the wicked slave isnt killed
3. A "torturer"was another word for jailor





JW

Jesus took it pretty seriously (v35)

Did I say we should not take it seriously? Is there a difference between taking something seriously and taking it literially?



JW

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

What would you call what is happening when someone is tortured for eternity?

I don’t think Bible is saying people are tortured eternally, that they live eternally in pain, because eternal life is promised only for righteous.