Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

[We_Are_VENOM]

.

First off, let me preface this by saying the following..

1. As mentioned on another thread, I have many years invested in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's), from family, to friends, to strangers. I am very familiar with them and their theology.

2. I am beginning a series of threads attacking their "Christian" theology and doctrine. This one, as titled, deals with Jehovah's Witnesses and their false prophecies.

3. I have beef with, not only JW's, but ANYONE of whom I believe to be spreading false Christian doctrine. This includes, but not limited to...

A.) Mormons
B.) Catholics
C.) World Mission Society Church of God
D.) Hebrew Israelites

Jehovah's Witnesses are just one of many false Christian denominations. But, we are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses for now.

So, the question is ultimately; Why do I feel as if Jehovah's Witnesses are false teachers? There are many reasons, and one of those reasons is their many failed attempts at predicting prophecy.

Before I continue on post #2, keep in mind that future threads in this series will go straight to the gusto, with no preface.

Just FYI.

[JehovahsWitness]

....how did Jesus's reign start in 1914 and not in... well, 33 A.D.?

Jehovahs Witnesses believe Jesus Messianic (Kingdom) rule did not start immdeiately upon his return to heaven in 33CE



#1 Psalms 110:1,2 indicates there would be a delay between the two events.

PSALMS 110:1
Jehovah declared to my Lord: Sit at my righthand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.

PSALMS 110:2
Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.

As we have noted Jesus was told to sit at this Father's right hand, if Christ's enemies were immediately placed under Christ's feet there would be no need for the word "until" which indicates a delay between the instruction and the action

#2 Jesus himself indicated to his disciples while on earth that the kingdom was not to be immediate (ie that year)

ACTS 1 : 6, 7

So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

LUKE 19 : 11, 12

While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return.

#3 The year 33 CE would not harmonize with the prophecied end of the gentile times (see below) which was when the Messiah (shiloh) was due to re-establish theocratic rule.



JW


RELATED POSTS

How does Ps 110:1, 2 relate to 1 Cor 15:25?
viewtopic.php?p=923845#p923845

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM, 1914 and ... THE GENTILE TIMES

[JehovahsWitness]

THE GENTILE TIMES

How do Jehovah's Witnesses arrive at the conclusion that a "period of time," as referred to in Daniel 4:16, is exactly 360 years?

Turning to chapter 12 of Revelation, we note that verses Re 12:6 and 14 show a period of 1,260 days to be “a time and times and half a time,” or 1 + 2 + 1/2 for a total of 3 1/2 times. Therefore, “a time” would be equal to 360 days, or 12 lunar months averaging 30 days each. “Seven times” would come to 2,520 days; and the Biblical prophetic reckoning of “a day for a year, a day for a year,” indicates that these actually would work out to be a period of 2,520 calendar years. (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) This, therefore, is the duration of the “seven times”​—the Gentile Times. -

source: Let your Kingdom come, pub WBTS, Chap 15 p. 135 par 24

Further reading: 1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/



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How do Jehovah's Witnesses arrive at 1914 being a pivotal year in bible chronology?
viewtopic.php?p=891124#p891124

607 BCE Why does the date given by Jehovah's Witnesses for the Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, differ from that of most historians of ?
viewtopic.php?p=825698#p825698

How is the length of the 7 gentile times calculated?
viewtopic.php?p=1045117#p1045117

Is it biblically sound to link prophecies written by DANIEL centuries before Jesus earthly ministry with future events ?
viewtopic.php?p=1045975#p1045975



GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[JehovahsWitness]

What event did Jesus state would end those "times"?

In his Olivet discourse, Jesus didnt specifically say what would happen when the gentile time ended. His words implied that there would be a resoration of some kind. Many see the fulfillement of this prophecy in Israel's takeover of Palestine in 1967 when Jerusalem returned to Jewish control, but Jehovahs Witnesses are not of that number.



Jesus had earlier spoken of Jerusalem as "the city of the great King” (Matthew 5:34, 35) thus refering to literal Jerusalem as symbolic of theocratic government. We believe the Jesus had in mind the reestablishment of theocratic rulership in the hands of the "King of Kings", the promised Messiah (Compare Ezekiel 21:25-27). The end of the Gentile times then would be marked by the enthronement of the promised Messiah (Jesus).

If that specifically happened, in which year was that?

1914




RELATED POSTS

If Jesus has been ruling since 1914 why have there been no significant improvements in world conditions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p883772

Did Jesus do nothing prior to 1914?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p883622

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM, 1914 and ... THE GENTILE TIMES

[PinSeeker]

....how did Jesus's reign start in 1914 and not in... well, 33 A.D.?

Jehovahs Witnesses believe Jesus Messianic (Kingdom) rule did not start immdeiately upon his return to heaven in 33CE

And how do they believe that if Jesus verified that He was a king during His life on earth, and that His kingdom was not of this world, then what do you think He was talking about? Do you think He quit reigning when He ascended to heaven and remained idle until 1914?

#1 Psalms 110:1,2 indicates there would be a delay between the two events.

PSALMS 110:1 -- Jehovah declared to my Lord: Sit at my righthand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.

PSALMS 110:2 -- Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.

As we have noted Jesus was told to sit at this Father's right hand, if Christ's enemies were immediately placed under Christ's feet there would be no need for the word "until" which indicates a delay between the instruction and the action.

Well, no, it doesn't. That Jesus has ruled from heaven since Pentecost and the fact that His enemies haven't been placed under His feet yet (even since 1914) are both facts.

#2 Jesus himself indicated to his disciples while on earth that the kingdom was not to be immediate (ie that year)

No, the question was about restoring His kingdom -- to what it was before Adam's Fall in Genesis 3 -- and that will happen at His return. It had nothing to do with the fact that He was king then (as He had clearly said to them and others many times) and has always been since (and reigning in heaven since His ascension).

#3 The year 33 CE would not harmonize with the prophesied end of the gentile times which was when the Messiah (shiloh) was due to re-establish theocratic rule.

Oh my. Well:

• 1. Not sure who would say 33 A.D. was the end of the time of the Gentiles. That won't be until Jesus returns, when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought into Israel and the partial hardening on Israel now has subsequently been removed.
  
  2. There will be no "theocratic rule." No need, as there will be no more sin.

Okay, yeah, I knew you would have your answers... Just asking for clarification on exactly what you believe. Thank you.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

THE GENTILE TIMES

How do Jehovah's Witnesses arrive at the conclusion that a "period of time," as referred to in Daniel 4:16, is exactly 360 years?

Turning to chapter 12 of Revelation, we note that verses Re 12:6 and 14 show a period of 1,260 days to be “a time and times and half a time,” or 1 + 2 + 1/2 for a total of 3 1/2 times. Therefore, “a time” would be equal to 360 days, or 12 lunar months averaging 30 days each. “Seven times” would come to 2,520 days; and the Biblical prophetic reckoning of “a day for a year, a day for a year,” indicates that these actually would work out to be a period of 2,520 calendar years. (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) This, therefore, is the duration of the “seven times”​—the Gentile Times.
source: Let your Kingdom come, pub WBTS, Chap 15 p. 135 par 24

God looks after the woman for 1260 days, the same period of 42 months or three and a half years mentioned in 11:2-3; 12:14; 13:5. The 1260 days is the entire inter-advent period. It begins immediately after Christ’s ascension. It continues throughout the period of Satanic assaults on the church, that is, the whole period until the Second Coming. During the entire period, God protects the church from satanic attacks. As per above, these are the times in which the fullness of the Gentiles is brought into Israel, and subsequently the partial hardening that has been placed on Israel has been removed, when the Jewish people (the ones that are Elect, anyway) come to Christ. In this way all of Israel will be saved, as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26.

Grace and peace to you.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Is that the royal "we"? If so then I won't argue.

It is the same "we" that you used when you made the statement that I responded to.

So, lets just take whatever "we" you meant by it, and go with that one.

Carbon dating is only good to about 40,000 years due to the half life of 14-C, but if you mean radiometric rating using other available isotopes (which cover much longer time periods) then the reliability has been proven beyond any doubts.

Yet, some young earth creationists have doubts.

But that was not my question to JW's.

That may have not been your question, but that was certainly your point.

The question wasn't "who did it", but the time frame ... which is crucially important. If this "creation" event was only some 6000 years ago then it easily proven to be false (via geology, archeology, biology, and most other "ologies"). If it was millions, or billions, of years ago then it is a very different situation. A biblical literalist must be a young earth creationist (YEC) as far as I know, and my question was whether JW's are in that category, or not.

Um, no. They (Young Earth Creationists) could just simply be WRONG about the time-frame, which says nothing about whether the actual religion is true (or false).

I recall having an argument with an ex-girlfriend about when the movie "The Prince of Egypt" was released in theatres.

I said it came out in the early 2000's, while she maintained the late 90's.

Guess what, I was wrong about the timeframe, but that doesn't meant that there was no such movie, does it?

Non sequitur.

[We_Are_VENOM]

STRAWMAN: Why are you asking that of me? Are you claiming Jehovah's Witnesses say this? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that it is only through Jesus we are saved (John 6:40).

Ohhh. So, are you saying that I can be saved by the blood of Christ without becoming a Jehovah's Witness and in essence belonging to the WTS?

So, say it officially: "You do not have to become a Jehovah's Witness in order to be saved".

Can we agree to those terms?

STRAWMAN: Do Jehovah's Witnesses ? No. Jehovahs Witnesses teach that the only mediator between God and man is Jesus (John 14:6)

We can nip this in the bud with the answering of my question above.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Scripturally speaking there is nothing "arrogant" about believing one has found the truth.

No, but there is arrogance in claiming that you (your organization) IS the truth.

As I stated in the OP, when someone leaves the WTS, that person has "left the truth" (according to Jehovah's Witnesses).

And if that person returns to the WTS, then that person is said to have "returned to the truth".

As if whether a person has the truth is based upon membership of the WTS.

Jesus said Gods Word is truth. Do you not need it?.

Jesus is God's word (John 1:1-3). But to answer your question; yes, I need Jesus. Can I have Jesus without belonging to the WTS?

That is the ultimate question.

[We_Are_VENOM]

One does not "achieve" truth, as if an imperfect human can make truth himself, one FINDS truth. If you do not want to be part of God's organised FAMILY then that is your choice

See, there you go.

"God's organized FAMILY".

The Bible doesn't say that. YOU are saying that.

, but the bible reveals God has both a heavenly and an earthy organisation. Paul described the earthly part as a body. Jesus referred to it as "the church".

Red herring.

Do Jehovahs witnesses? Jehovahs Witnesses put their faith in Jesus. (see Romans 10:8-9).The bible also however says however Christians must obey those taking the lead amongst them.

Jesus is my leader...and I obey him.

The Isaiah 43:10. Period.

Ohh, I get it...

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,

So, we just name ourselves "Jehovah's Witnesses", so that we can maintain that the scripture applies directly to us. LOL.

Besides that, the preceding verses (beginning with verse 1) has God talking about/to Israel.

If ever the accusation of "taking the Bible out of context" has applied, it applies here.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Yes. So? So WHAT?! Is having a wrong opinion a capital offense?

It is a capital offense in the sense that one wrong opinion is the end all/be all, as it pertains to whether or not I should continue to follow a group who claims to be "God's chosen organization".

There is no such thing as "fake truth", that's an oxymoron.

You got me there, JW.

But I reckon you know full well the point I was trying to get across

STRAWMAN Jehovahs Witnesses have never claimed to know something Jesus did not. They have expresses (somewhat over enthusiasticly at times) what they believe, their opinions, regarding to revealed prophecies. Like Peter, they were wrong and have been duly corrected. Rather a Peter than a Judas!

JW

No, those were more than just opinions, as those timeframes were presented as if it was the Gospel, and JW's view all WTS publications as the Gospel (a thread on this coming soon).