Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

[We_Are_VENOM]

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First off, let me preface this by saying the following..

1. As mentioned on another thread, I have many years invested in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's), from family, to friends, to strangers. I am very familiar with them and their theology.

2. I am beginning a series of threads attacking their "Christian" theology and doctrine. This one, as titled, deals with Jehovah's Witnesses and their false prophecies.

3. I have beef with, not only JW's, but ANYONE of whom I believe to be spreading false Christian doctrine. This includes, but not limited to...

A.) Mormons
B.) Catholics
C.) World Mission Society Church of God
D.) Hebrew Israelites

Jehovah's Witnesses are just one of many false Christian denominations. But, we are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses for now.

So, the question is ultimately; Why do I feel as if Jehovah's Witnesses are false teachers? There are many reasons, and one of those reasons is their many failed attempts at predicting prophecy.

Before I continue on post #2, keep in mind that future threads in this series will go straight to the gusto, with no preface.

Just FYI.

[Checkpoint]

What event did Jesus state would end those "times"?

In his Olivet discourse, Jesus didnt specifically say what would happen when the gentile time ended.

Thanks for your answers to some of my questions.

Please note at this point that what you summed up does not equate with this particular question.

My one said: "What event did Jesus state would end those "times"?"

Yours said: "what would happen when the gentile time ended".

Do you see what the difference is?

Do you see that that difference is not minor or insignificant?

It is because they are different that you set off on a completely different scenario than the "many" you then mentioned, have?

As in this that you followed on with:

His words implied that there would be a resoration of some kind.

Many see the fulfillement of this prophecy in Israel's takeover of Palestine in 1967 when Jerusalem returned to Jewish control, but Jehovahs Witnesses are not of that number.



Jesus had earlier spoken of Jerusalem as "the city of the great King” (Matthew 5:34, 35) thus refering to literal Jerusalem as symbolic of theocratic government. We believe the Jesus had in mind the reestablishment of theocratic rulership in the hands of the "King of Kings", the promised Messiah (Compare Ezekiel 21:25-27). The end of the Gentile times then would be marked by the enthronement of the promised Messiah (Jesus).

If that specifically happened, in which year was that?

You get quite a different answer because you start from a point not mentioned, and therefore not implied, by Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

My one said: "What event did Jesus state would end those "times"?"

Yours said: "what would happen when the gentile time ended".

I'm sorry I thought you were referring to the gentile "times" ... what "times" were you asking about? Perhaps in the interest of clarity you can cite the exact verse you are asking about.

[JehovahsWitness]

IS IT WRONG TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND BIBLE PROPHECY?

First of all, anyone who claims to know what "the times of the Gentiles" means, is speculating.

Obviously the prophecies (including that referring to Gentile Times) are there to be read and understood (compare Rom 15:4). They are not in scripture for us to ignore and never speak about. Time prophecies (ie prophecies that clearly relate to identifying a period or even a specific YEAR) are there to be pondered over. Sincere lovers of the bible have always speculated over what the more difficult passaages mean... are there is no biblical basis for treating those that present such speculations with distain

He didn't say, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority, however, if you read the Book of Daniel, I'm sure you will figure something out".

Jesus never belittled or reprimanded his disciples for their sincere enquiries, his reply indicated that they must accept that it is THE FATHER that makes decisions as to timing and that GOD reveals his intentions in his own due time to those he so wishes. Evidently, the first century was not the moment for such a revelation and they (ie first century disciples) where not to be the recipients of such knowledge. That is not to say however that nobody ever would. Note the experience of Daniel himself in this regard

DANIEL 12:8-10

" Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?”

9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.+ 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined.+ And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.”

NOTE: Daniel is not reprimanded for asking about future events nor for not understanding what had been written. He was told (as Jesus later implied to the Apostles) then was not the time and he(Daniel) was not in the group that would be given such insights.

KEEP ON THE WATCH!

Many people criticise Jehovah's Witnesses for expressing opinions as to the fulfillment of time prophecies. However, like Peter and the early disciples they at least are interested in the kingdom and when it will come.

The churches, who have long climbed into bed with worldly government, have for the most part kept their flock in the dark as to such prophecies. In fact, in my experience many people, even those that frequent religion discussion forums, have never even HEARD of the "gentile times" before Jehovahs Witnesses post about them. The early Witnesses of the late 1890's (like Peter and the Apostles) believed theirs was the time God would reveal the understanding of the chronology of end time prophecies. They were out by several decades but were blessed because they did not close the books of Daniel and Revelation and vow never to speak of such things ever again.




MICHAEL STANDS UP!

Daniel's final prophecy includes another interesting detail.

DANIEL 12:1, 4

“During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince [...] “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.

The early bible students of the 1890's had but to wait a few decades, "for the time of the end" to begin. God would eventually reveal an accurate understanding of prophecies "sealed" for centuries. This would not be to people, brainwashed by their religious indoctrination into fearing time prophecies or viewing them as irrelevant for godly living, but to a humble people that never stopped trying to understand the deep things of God. Yes, they had gotten some things wrong but unlike the Christendom and her mislead sheep, they at least had kept trying.

CONCLUSION Jehovahs Witnesses feel no shame for having misunderstood some things, for they are convinced that when Michael the Great Prince stood up and looked for a "faithful and discreet slave" , they were chosen in part for their keen interest in his return and industrousness in preaching about it! They may have walked funny at first but is it for those with no feet to criticise them? (Rom 10:15)

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , FALSE PROPHETS and ... HERMENEUTICS*

[ * ]Bible Interpretation

[JehovahsWitness]

No inaccuracy have resulted from divine direction; inaccuracirs have arisen from not seeing clearly what direction God wanted (compare Proverbs 4:18)

Surely he will direct and guide you to the right interpretation of his word?

He has. However, biblically divine guidance does not always result in instanteous understanding but is oftentime progressive in nature.

PROVERBS 4:18

But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.

The principle is clear, the path to understanding is like light gradually increasing at Dawn. Jesus implied a similar sentiment as he explicitly stated to his disciples he deliberatly withheld information because they simply were not ready to receive it at the time. If humans have at times second guessed, rushed ahead or made decisions in misplaced anticipation, God has not rejected them but corrected them and taught them the value of patience.

INSPIRED REVELATION OR SCRIPTURE BASED INTERPRETATION

People often confuse inspired revelation (such as when the Prophet Daniel explain Nebuchadnezzars dream) with divinly guided interpretation as is enjoyed by Gods people today. Inspired revelation, which often ended up as part of the infallible word of God, is God speaking through a Prophet or a visionary to explain a sign, dream or a prevous prophecy. Divinly guided interpretation, is not through direct revelation but rather through diligent study of Gods inspired word. Note the Amblified Bibles rendering of Daniel 12:4 ...

DANIEL 12:4

But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the scroll until the end of time. Many will go back and forth and search anxiously [through the scroll], and knowledge [of the purpose of God as revealed by His prophets] will [greatly] increase.”

The FOOTNOTE for the new world translation reads : Or “examine it [that is, the book] thoroughly.”

Why did the angel tell Daniel that people would have to closely examine the words he had recorded if the understanding would be instantly revealed by inspired revelation?

CONCLUSION Jehovah's s Witnesses have never claimed to be the recipients of divinely inspired revelation. Their interpretation are based on their current understanding of scripture obtained through dilgeant study. They have always humbly waited on his holy spiriit to reveal to them if they were right or not. [/quote]


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[ * ]Bible Interpretation
.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you God? God's people only have to live up to his expectations not yours.

Well, if you guys are out there telling us (the public) that you are God's chosen organization, then with that comes a certain expectancy.

Indeed, you are free to expect anything you like, you can expect us to float 6 inches off the ground and hear angels sing whenever we start our cars. We on the other hand, are under no constaint to live up to unbiblical expectations. Infallibility is not a biblical requirement of Gods servant. Neither is refraining from "speculating" on the meaning of bible prophecy




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What is the difference between a PREDICTION and A PROPHECY? [this post]
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[JehovahsWitness]

Organizations chosen by God dont give opinions, they give facts.

Really? Says who?! What scripture do you have to support this conclusion.

Scripture? Off the top of my head..

Daniel
Joseph
Nathan
Samuel

Are they scriptures? They seem to be a list of men's names. Are you claiming each individual was an ORGANISATION ?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, ORGANISATION, and .... THE TRUE RELIGION

[PinSeeker]

That Jesus has ruled from heaven since Pentecost ...

Scripture please?

I think I've been very clear:

• The kingdom had come when Jesus was born, as the wise men acknowledged to Herod that Jesus had been born King of the Jews in Matthew 2:2.

• Jesus, about 33 years later, acknowledged that He was King of the Jews before Pilate and that His kingdom was not of this world, as we see in Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:2, Luke 23:3, and John 18:34-37.

• Jesus Christ ascended to heaven 40 days after His resurrection (and of course is still there, as He has not returned yet; surely you would not postulate otherwise), as acknowledged by the two men in white robes in Acts 1:10-11.

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So actually, Jesus has been ruling from heaven since His ascension, just before Pentecost, but "since Pentecost" serves.

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• Christ is seated at the right hand of -- in the power of -- God, as we see in Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:69, Ephesians 1:20 ("...(the Father) raised (Christ Jesus) from the dead and seated (Jesus) at (the Father's) right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion..."), Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 8:1, and Hebrews 12:2.

• Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:4, Revelation 19:16).

Is that sufficient for you? Well... maybe not for you... but sufficient it is. We know that Jesus is the same yesterday, day, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). He was always, is, and will always be King. And since His ascension, He is indisputably in heaven. And kings... well... they reign, and do not cease to do so. So, following that inductive reasoning, He is reigning from heaven -- since His ascension, right now, and until His return, at which time heaven and earth will be one.

Grace and peace to you

[JehovahsWitness]

...we are talking about predictions/prophecy...

Exactly, they were inspired PROPHETS. Jehovahs Witnesses make no such claim. We are not prophets and we certainly are not inspired.

One can be "directed by God" without being a prophet.

EPHESIANS 4:11 - Berean Literal Bible

And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers ....

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[JehovahsWitness]

Organizations chosen by God dont give opinions, they give facts.

Scripture? Off the top of my head..

Daniel
Joseph
Nathan
Samuel

CAN GODS TRUE SERVANTS SHARE THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS?

Anyone that has read their bible knows God's servants have shared their opinions on occassions ; opinions which have sometimes been inaccurate, hasty or just plain wrong. However none of that rubbished their claim to be part of Gods chose people or be a dedicated servant of the Most High. For example

Daniel - failed to understand what he recorded
Joseph - took 20 years before he grasped his own visions
Nathan - Gave wrong direction to a king
Samuel - Appointed corrupt and dishonest men to a position of oversight

Yet all of them were men directed by God, all of them were men of faith, all of them were used by God in a mighty way


CONCLUSION : It is an unbiblical misconception to conclude having a position of leadership within Gods organisation or being directed by God means not being free to share ones opinions or beliefs on a matters of faith. It is therefore scripturally unbiblical to suggest Jehovahs Witnesses cannot be Gods people merely because they published understandings and opinions that latter proved to be erroneous.




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[JehovahsWitness]

See, when you are actually chosen by God, your predictions do not prove to be false, but rather are Proven to come true.

Says who? (see above).


WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PREDICTION AND A PROPHECY?

Biblically a prediction attributed to God would be PROPHECY. A prediction based on an OPINION of recorded prophecy would be ....interpretation. An interpretation might be through in inspired revelation or, as is usually the case, an opinion based on the current understanding.



If the conclusions (a) harmonize fully with existing inspired scripture and (b) reflect proven reality, then Gods people can reasonably conclude it has been revealed to them by Him. If not, it is God's way to say keep looking.

Do YOU see the difference?






JW




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