#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[otseng]

And to a rational person it would seem unjust, unless a person just wants to be a zealot about the eternal torment teaching. It is the only logical conclusion that can be made. The doctrine only survives because its kept alive by zealots of the doctrine.

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[PinSeeker]

Which death is God defining in Genesis 2, Wootah?

In what way did He define it?

Does He not define a different death as well, in Genesis 3?

In what way did He define that death?

What's the overall point you're trying to make here, Checkpoint?

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

God said: "the dead know not any thing."

PinSeeker said: "the dead know not any thing of this life."

I see how it works -- You added the words "of this life."

I did add "of this life," but only because Ecclesiastes 9 is talking about this life. "Life under the sun," as the writers says over and over and over again throughout the book. I'm merely reminding you of the context of the passage and the book itself. So your warning not to add to the Bible is way out of line, a total non sequitur. So, yet again, yes, regarding this life, the dead know not anything of it after their physical death.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Wait wait wait a minute! Are eternal torment fanatics saying that the people that are tormented eternally don't remember their former life as a human?!

Um, well, whatever you want to call those who, you know, know annihilation is never intimated anywhere in the Bible... well, I can't speak for all of them, but not remembering their former life as a human would be antithetical to Luke 16, among other passages. So no.

If they can't remember anything of 'this life' does that mean that they don't even remember their former sins and thus don't know why they are being tormented?! That's the worst interpretation of that scripture I've ever heard!

Well... it would be pretty bad, I agree. But I've never heard of such an interpretation; it's certainly not mine.

This inferior tormenting god sounds worse and worse the more I hear about them.

Two things here:

1. I have said over and over and over again -- and in this very thread -- that God does not torment. The torment is an inner anguish (to put it mildly, really) and is of no one's doing, much less God.

2. I'm, um, not sure about your hearing skills...

Apparently, people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity. Might as well eternally torment babies while they are at it, they have no memory of a past life either. SMH

Proverbs 29:22-23 seems an appropriate passage here:

• "A man of wrath stirs up strife, and one given to anger causes much transgression. One’s pride will bring him low, but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor."

Grace and peace to all.

[2timothy316]

The Scriptures do in fact confirm that the dead know not any thing, but if you actually put it in context -- Ecclesiastes 9 and Ecclesiastes as a whole, as we are talking about Ecclesiastes 9:5 (yet again) -- then you quickly realize (or at least some do) that they are gone from this world, this life, "life under the sun," and they know nothing of this life anymore. But they are not non-existing...

How can that work?

If you think about it, I think you can figure it out. But, maybe not. God said it; it is what it is.

I figured it out!

God said: "the dead know not any thing."

PinSeeker said: "the dead know not any thing of this life."

I see how it works -- You added the words "of this life."

Please be aware of the following warnings:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Psalm 146:4 says that the person's thoughts perish at death. It says, "His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

So now there are two problems with the interpretation a person will not remember 'this life'.

1. The dead knowing nothing of 'this life', will have no idea who they are, who God is, and why they are being punished.
2. The dead's thoughts are dead.

There is literally no point to eternally punishing someone that doesn't know why they are punished and they can't think.
If I had to be eternally punished, this isn't bad at all, because the Bible is saying I will be be able to make a thought such as sorrow.

[PinSeeker]

Psalm 146:4 says that the person's thoughts perish at death. It says, "His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

Right, which is a more poetic parallel to Ecclesiastes 9:5. Therefore, the same explanation as above applied to Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- by me, of course -- applies here.

So now there are two problems with the interpretation a person will not remember 'this life'...

There's no need to discuss this -- further discussion regarding this "interpretation" is pointless -- because no one thinks this (even if it is foisted upon him).

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

So now there are two problems with the interpretation a person will not remember 'this life'...

There's no need to discuss this -- further discussion regarding this "interpretation" is pointless -- because no one thinks this (even if it is foisted upon him).

Grace and peace to you.

No one thinks this, except you...or do you wish to retract what you said in post 128?
viewtopic.php?p=1046248#p1046248

The Scriptures do in fact confirm that the dead know not any thing, but if you actually put it in context -- Ecclesiastes 9 and Ecclesiastes as a whole, as we are talking about Ecclesiastes 9:5 (yet again) -- then you quickly realize (or at least some do) that they are gone from this world, this life, "life under the sun," and they know nothing of this life anymore. But they are not non-existing...

These are your words and now your are contradicting yourself and that is why you do not wish to discuss it further. You're caught in your own corner. They either know something of their life under the sun or they know nothing, it can't be both as the scriptures doesn't support both.

If they know nothing of this life under the Sun that means nothing. They don't know love, hate, jealousy, it's all dead. There is no work, no wisdom in the grave. (Ecc 9:6, 10)

[PinSeeker]

now your are contradicting yourself and that is why you do not wish to discuss it further. You're caught in your own corner. They either know something of their life or they know nothing, it can't be both as the scriptures doesn't support both.

Where specifically did I contradict myself, 2timothy316? I did not. Thank you for pointing out specifically where you think I did, and giving me the chance to respond. I was very clear, but I will clarify yet again:

They are gone from this life, so in this life, they have no memory of anything; they know nothing, because they are gone from this life -- life under the sun. Where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed -- because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. And the reason we know that is because, in the context of Ecclesiastes, only life under the sun (and lack thereof) is being spoken of. That I should have to clarify this is, quite frankly, incredible. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

now your are contradicting yourself and that is why you do not wish to discuss it further. You're caught in your own corner. They either know something of their life or they know nothing, it can't be both as the scriptures doesn't support both.

Where specifically did I contradict myself, 2timothy316? I did not. Thank you for pointing out specifically where you think I did, and giving me the chance to respond. I was very clear, but I will clarify yet again:

They are gone from this life, so in this life, they have no memory of anything; they know nothing, because they are gone from this life -- life under the sun. Where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed, because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. And the reason we know that is because, in the context of Ecclesiastes, only life under the sun (and lack thereof) is being spoken of. That I should have to clarify this is, quite frankly, incredible. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

Yet the Bible specifically names things that will not be remembered and things a dead person can't do. So you saying that "anything in the afterlife is not being addressed." is false!
There are no emotions like, love, hate, jealousy, it's all dead. There is no work, no wisdom in the grave. (Ecc 9:6, 10)
The Bible says they are silent. (Ps 115:17)
Jesus called Lazarus asleep when he died. (John 11:11)
The fact I have to clarify this.....is wow.

[PinSeeker]

now your are contradicting yourself and that is why you do not wish to discuss it further. You're caught in your own corner. They either know something of their life or they know nothing, it can't be both as the scriptures doesn't support both.

Where specifically did I contradict myself, 2timothy316? I did not. Thank you for pointing out specifically where you think I did, and giving me the chance to respond. I was very clear, but I will clarify yet again:

They are gone from this life, so in this life, they have no memory of anything; they know nothing, because they are gone from this life -- life under the sun. Where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed, because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. And the reason we know that is because, in the context of Ecclesiastes, only life under the sun (and lack thereof) is being spoken of. That I should have to clarify this is, quite frankly, incredible. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

Yet the Bible specifically names things that will not be remembered.
There are no emotions like, love, hate, jealousy, it's all dead. There is no work, no wisdom in the grave. (Ecc 9:6, 10)
The Bible says they are silent. (Ps 115:17)
Jesus called Lazarus asleep when he died. (John 11:11)

LOL!!! Right, IN THIS LIFE, regarding THIS LIFE -- the temporal -- because they are gone from it. Again, where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed, because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. Incredible.

Grace and peace to you.