#3 Jesus on Hell

[Wootah]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

#1 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38453
#2 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38457

[PinSeeker]

Like I have said, speaking from our perspective -- or rather putting it in terms we can readily understand -- life imprisonment is, really, much worse than the death penalty.

No Pinseeker, God is the One who has chosen which penalty to impose, not you or anyone else.

Well, think about it, Checkpoint. You're kind of making -- unknowingly, I guess -- the same point as me, here. I'm putting things in, like I said, terms we can readily understand. Yes, God is completely sovereign; I have never said or implied anything remotely dissimilar to that.

That penalty has been paid on our behalf by Jesus the Anointed One, and it was certainly not life imprisonment.

Sure. But the wages of sin is death. Which you know, I'm well aware; we all agree on that. But death, in God's economy, is like -- on a far greater level but like -- life imprisonment.

The ransom he paid was death, and that death was for three days and three nights, just as he had, beforehand, said it would be.

Right. Sure. As you well know, though, I'm sure, Jesus was that very day in paradise, and the thief crucified on His right was with Him, just as He said he/they would be. So somehow you have to figure out what to do with that Or not, if you don't want to, but that's up to you; it is what it is, whether you do or not.

We fail to begin to deal with death and hell, when we arbitrarily make significant changes we then call "putting it in terms we can readily understand".

Nobody's changing anything. You took my comment totally out of context, totally misunderstood it, or... something. Hopefully I made things a bit clearer with my comments here. To this, though, I would say that Jesus did much the same thing with His parables. Not that I am comparing myself in any way to Jesus, but surely you understand my point.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

But the wages of sin is death. Which you know, I'm well aware; we all agree on that. But death, in God's economy, is like -- on a far greater level but like -- life imprisonment.

It was God who set the system up so that the wages of sin is death.

And once dead, a person has no life to spend in prison.

You are trying to change the system to comply with what you have been taught.

That's called a private interpretation, and the Bible warns against making them:

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Please illustrate that you are not making a private interpretation by quoting the scripture verses which clearly indicates that to God, a death is like life in prison.

Thanks in advance.

[PinSeeker]

If it was my opinion, Pinseeker, I would not say that my Lord taught it to me. Because that would then be a lie.

Oh, my. So... okay... would you not say that it is now your opinion (as opposed to what your opinion might have been before), and you regard it as factual because "(your) Lord taught it to (you)"? My goodness. Yeah, I mean, we all have opinions based on something, and we hold onto those opinions to be fact. So, opinion or no, you think something now to be fact, for some reason. It is still, by definition, your opinion. Otherwise, you're kind of saying your brain is not your own but somebody else's, and that's ridiculous.

You have never been able to demonstrate that (punishment for the sake of punishment/eternal conscious torment that can never ceases) is required to meet God's perfect justice.

That is absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably not what I've tried to demonstrate. You're putting words into my mouth, whether intentionally or not, whether you realize it or not.

I misunderstood what you said backaways, sorry. I said punishment for the sake of punishment, and you said, no, for the sake of justice. The point remains though - you have never been able to demonstrate that unending (conscious) punishment - is required to meet God's perfect justice.

LOL!!! Round and round we go... Come on, Tammy. Come on. Okay, the punishment is eternal, as denoted by "eternal punishment," which straight from Scripture and inarguable. Your point may remain, but it's a total non sequitur, because as I've said, I've never tried to demonstrate that unending punishment, conscious or otherwise, is "required to meet God's perfect justice." What is required to meet God's perfect justice -- and I think you would agree -- is perfection, perfect holiness, living up to (instead of falling far short of, as we all do) His glory. And, this is why we need a Savior, Someone Who can do -- and did, in the Person of Jesus -- all this on our behalf. I think we all agree on that; most of us, anyway.

What makes you think God requires something WORSE than death, worse than annihilation?

Actually, I think, among other things, of course, God does something more -- far more -- graceful and loving than annihilation. I mean I realize that's the argument (one of them, anyway) people like you use His attribute of love to support annihilation, but it's misused... like I have said, speaking from our perspective -- or rather putting it in terms we can readily understand -- life imprisonment is, really, much worse than the death penalty

So is it more loving or worse?

Yes.

Nonsense. I do not mean that you are nonsense, I mean is that this is a nonsense response.

Nope. You think it's nonsense because you think something cannot at the same time be "more loving" and "worse" at the same time. But it can, and is.

Your two responses contradicted...

Absolutely not. Despite your opinion.

...instead of thinking, 'hey wait a minute, there might be something flawed in this belief', you ignore the contradiction and claim that life imprisonment is both more loving, and also worse?

There is no contradiction. Just because something is perceived does not make it so.

Who is it more loving for? Certainly not the people who are in the Kingdom. Why would we want others to suffer for all eternity? Certainly not for the people being imprisoned and who are suffering for all eternity, since, as you said, life imprisonment is much worse than the death penalty. So who is it more loving for?

Well, the short answer -- and this applied to both the former (people in the Kingdom and those sent away) is that everyone, without exception, gets what he/she chooses. And as for those who make the wrong choice:

First, in this life, He endures them with much patience (Romans 9:22), even giving them grace (and in many cases much grace) in the process.

Second, regarding God's sending or consigning some to hell, this only denotes an action on God's part. The way your question is worded implies that, if anyone goes to hell, regardless what the punishment is, it is the result of God’s unilateral action, and the person being sent to hell is a passive victim, which surely is not the case.

The question itself is wrong. A better wording is “If God is love, then how is it loving to consign some to hell?” Well, Paul, in Romans 1:18–20, says that these people actively “suppress the truth.” And God has “made (God’s nature) plain to them,” so these “people are without excuse.” Having said that, I don't think there is any argument that God is perfect in justice; He is. And justice requires adequate payment for crimes committed. So then the question becomes, "what punishment for unrepentant sinners is just?" Well, we don't get to decide that, right?

I'll leave it at that, but just add ~ yet again ~ that what happens to folks in hell is only the result of God's action of judgment.

So what makes you claim we are all eternal?

As I've said before, that (among other things) we are created in God's image. But even more basic than that, that He created us in the first place, and that He created us "very good."

Hades gives up the dead in it BECAUSE the dead in it have been resurrected. Some are resurrected to life, some are resurrected to judgment and the second death. Yes, the judgment does occur after the (second) resurrection (which is why the sea, death and hades are giving up the dead in them - those dead are being resurrected, to stand before the throne, some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death).

Good...

If you are agreeing with that, then you have no objection to the statement that Rich man and Lazarus can not be an example of eternal torment, because Hades (where the Rich Man is) gives up the dead in it (at the resurrection).

No, you're making a connection where there is none, really. The throwing of the devil, and death and Hades, and anyone whose name was not found written into the book of life into the lake of fire in Revelation 20 should be seen as final and permanent separation of these beings and even these things from the new heaven and new earth of everything undeserving, unrepentant, and unbelieving.

You're still mixing two different events into one ; )... but there is not much more to add on that subject at the moment.

No, not really. The first, second, third, and fourth quarters (and possibly overtime) are all part of the same football game.

The thousand years begins when Christ returns, gathers His own up to Him (meeting Him in the sky, along with the dead in Christ who were resurrected). Paul makes it clear that this has not happened yet.

Nope. Paul makes it clear (in 1 Thessalonians 4) that the second resurrection has not happened yet, his purpose being to calm the Thessalonians fear that if they are still alive when Christ returns they will be excluded.

Sounds to me like he is reassuring the people about those who had died.

Right... Both, really.

But he also makes clear in Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ as does Peter in 1 Peter 1:3 ~ that the first resurrection has happened for those who are in Christ.

Paul and Peter are not talking about a resurrection.

Yes they are. To be raised up when before one was dead, to be born again to a new hope... indeed a resurrection.

So does John, who also makes clear ~ all in Revelation 20:4-6 ~ that this first resurrection will continue to happen on an individual basis throughout this age, these last days (before Christ returns).

What specifically in Revelation 20:4-6, states or even indicates that the first resurrection happens on an individual basis throughout the 'thousand years'?

John is reiterating what Paul and Peter said. Showing it graphically, actually, as it was given to him in his dream.

He does tell us to stop touching the unclean thing though.

And what are you referring to, here, Tammy? Food?

We are also called to "Come out of her, my people!" Why? So that we do not share in her sins. We are also told that many will say "Lord Lord" whom Christ never knew. We're supposed to follow and listen to Christ, and remain in Him. That is not going rogue.

I'm talking about separating yourself from those who conform to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right/true. Not necessarily agreeing with them on every jot and tittle, but separating yourself from them. That's pretty much going rogue (in a manner of speaking).

I do not conform to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right/true. I listen to Christ and believe what HE says is right/true. There's a big difference between the two (tradition and truth).

Here again you're mixing different things. I said "generally or traditionally accepted," and you took that word 'traditionally' and ran off with it I know not where. Well, I know where, but there was no justification in your running off with it.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[PinSeeker]

It was God who set the system up so that the wages of sin is death.

REALLY???? Oh my goodness! REALLY??? Just hackin' at ya, myth-one.

And once dead, a person has no life to spend in prison.

In this life, right. But that's beyond the point. Or far short of it, actually.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

It was God who set the system up so that the wages of sin is death.

REALLY???? Oh my goodness! REALLY??? Just hackin' at ya, myth-one.

Yea, but the sad thing is that you do not believe that the wages of sin is death as set up by God.

And once dead, a person has no life to spend in prison.

In this life, right. But that's beyond the point. Or far short of it, actually.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

For those who will suffer their "second death" after judgment, they will have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

[PinSeeker]

Yea, but the sad thing is that you do not believe that the wages of sin is death as set up by God.

Well, I do, because Paul says it. Actually God says it, via His Holy Spirit, through Paul. So, yes I do. As I have said over and over and over again, you misunderstand what God's death truly is. And I wouldn't call that "sad."

For those who will suffer their "second death" after judgment, they will have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

I have neither said nor insinuated any differently. Not one little bit. But they will indeed be in a place (they will have been sent there) where Life is not, and they will know it, and will know that they could have avoided it. And their thirst for Living Water will never end. And all of that will be a torment to them, and they will be in anguish because of it. Forever. This is the second death.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

For those who will suffer their "second death" after judgment, they will have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

I have neither said nor insinuated any differently. Not one little bit.

Get real. You have always said differently!!

Here we go again. At this millisecond in time you have not one bit of disagreement that those suffering the second death have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

Great. Let's see what your very next sentence states.

But they will indeed be in a place (they will have been sent there) where Life is not, and they will know it, and will know that they could have avoided it. And their thirst for Living Water will never end. And all of that will be a torment to them, and they will be in anguish because of it. Forever. This is the second death.

Oops! You stated the opposite again -- disavowing your previous statement a few words back.

Choose one or the other and stick with it.

Death is the opposite of life.

Oh, I bet you are using the "non-literal" meaning of death here.

[otseng]

LOL!!! Round and round we go...

REALLY???? Oh my goodness! REALLY??? Just hackin' at ya, myth-one.

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[PinSeeker]

For those who will suffer their "second death" after judgment, they will have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

I have neither said nor insinuated any differently. Not one little bit.

Get real. You have always said differently!!

Nope. That's how you want to paint it, for one reason or another, but nope.

At this millisecond in time you have not one bit of disagreement that those suffering the second death have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

Well, at every millisecond. Yes, not one bit.

But they will indeed be in a place (they will have been sent there) where Life is not, and they will know it, and will know that they could have avoided it. And their thirst for Living Water will never end. And all of that will be a torment to them, and they will be in anguish because of it. Forever. This is the second death.

Oops! You stated the opposite again -- disavowing your previous statement a few words back.

Nope. Again, just because you want to paint it that way -- for whatever reason -- does not make it so.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

For those who will suffer their "second death" after judgment, they will have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

I have neither said nor insinuated any differently. Not one little bit.

Get real. You have always said differently!!

Nope. That's how you want to paint it, for one reason or another, but nope.

At this millisecond in time you have not one bit of disagreement that those suffering the second death have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

Well, at every millisecond. Yes, not one bit.

But they will indeed be in a place (they will have been sent there) where Life is not, and they will know it, and will know that they could have avoided it. And their thirst for Living Water will never end. And all of that will be a torment to them, and they will be in anguish because of it. Forever. This is the second death.

Oops! You stated the opposite again -- disavowing your previous statement a few words back.

Nope. Again, just because you want to paint it that way -- for whatever reason -- does not make it so.

Grace and peace to you.

PinSeeker has not one bit of disagreement that those suffering the second death have no life anywhere, anytime, or anyplace ever again.

But PinSeeker then claims that those who suffered the second death will indeed be in a place where Life is not, and they will know it, and will know that they could have avoided it.

The scriptures, as inspired by God state that the dead know not any thing:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If God is correct that the dead know not any thing, how do the dead know they are in a place where life is not and that they could have avoided it?