Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[POI]

Sounds like your argument is Romans 1? (i.e.) Humans know God exists.

- Some choose to follow
- Some choose to rebel
- Some are confused by evil

Part of it, sure.

What part am I missing here?

Do you have to repent of your very last sin, just prior to your exit/death? Meaning, can you have any un-repented sin on you, and then die?

No, because if you truly repent of your sins, then you are living a life of repentance, not just saying the words, which at some point you may no longer be able to do. And living this life of repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of the triune God -- in us.

I'm not following.... Are you saying that if you are a true-blue believer/follower/worshiper, you no longer need to actively repent, because you are already 'living a life of repentance'?

No. Repentance is ongoing and constant in this life... or should be, anyway. This is what living a life of repentance is.

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

If all works are tainted, then works are effectively arbitrary. All that matters, at a minimum, is belief/repent/worship

.
Not so. Good works, those honored by God. are a result of a changed heart and done in saving faith which God effects by the work of His Spirit ~ despite the still-existing human inclination to sin. So is repentance, belief, and worship, actually.

This response looks to make your position contradictory.

Nope. I guess I understand your statement that it may seem contradictory to some, but no.

Playing 'devil's advocate', let me see if I understand your position in a nutshell? Please correct where necessary...

The sign of the truly faithful will be directly reflected upon the amount of "Good works' one does. Hence, the judgement of one's "Good works" is essentially judging one's true faith. ?.?.?.?.?

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

This would mean Soteriology is an unnecessary topic.

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Playing 'devil's advocate', let me see if I understand your position in a nutshell? Please correct where necessary... The sign of the truly faithful will be directly reflected upon the amount of "Good works' one does. Hence, the judgement of one's "Good works" is essentially judging one's true faith. ?.?.?.?.?

We will know other Christians by their works, yes. Scripture is clear on that. But anyone can do good things, so we can only assume, really.

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

This would mean Soteriology is an unnecessary topic.

You know, it kind of is, in an "it is what it is" sort of way. But, I would say that if it was unnecessary, God would not have related it to us. He meant what He said, and He said what He meant. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17); soteriology (Romans 8:29-30) is about the purpose and power of God to save. But to each his own, I guess.

Grace and peace to you.

[POI]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Hmm... So if a professed Christian does not genuinely feel remorseful/regretful for marrying the same sex, then they are not really a Christian?

Playing 'devil's advocate', let me see if I understand your position in a nutshell? Please correct where necessary... The sign of the truly faithful will be directly reflected upon the amount of "Good works' one does. Hence, the judgement of one's "Good works" is essentially judging one's true faith. ?.?.?.?.?

We will know other Christians by their works, yes. Scripture is clear on that. But anyone can do good things, so we can only assume, really.

Yes, the Bible is clear. If you are rich, you must not be a Christian. But what exactly does Jesus consider 'rich'?

Luke 14:33-34 - Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Would it be safe to say that anyone who does not merely live in a meager one bedroom flat, and has savings, is not considered a Christian to Jesus? Seems as though we can find many Verses, which suggest giving your wealth to the poor is a necessity.

Are you then a Christian, in this nature? Have you given, and continue to give the majority of your money to the poor?

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

This would mean Soteriology is an unnecessary topic.

You know, it kind of is, in an "it is what it is" sort of way. But, I would say that if it was unnecessary, God would not have related it to us. He meant what He said, and He said what He meant. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17); soteriology (Romans 8:29-30) is about the purpose and power of God to save. But to each his own, I guess.

Grace and peace to you.

Interesting... I guess I'll have to wait and see if your assertions hold against logic above

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Hmm... So if a professed Christian does not genuinely feel remorseful/regretful for marrying the same sex, then they are not really a Christian?

Not necessarily. But it's certainly cause for concern.

Yes, the Bible is clear. If you are rich, you must not be a Christian. But what exactly does Jesus consider 'rich'?

No, that's not what Jesus teaches in that passage. There's nothing wrong with being rich, but rather in thinking you are self-sustaining and not in need of a Savior, which, if one is rich, is a much easier pit to fall into. Read Luke 14 again with that in mind. To answer your question, though, if we have Jesus, we are rich ~ regardless of our earthly largesse (or lack thereof). If we do not, then we are dirt poor ~ again, regardless of our earthly largesse (or lack thereof). Do you not think God can bless the rich and the poor alike? Because He can... and does.

Have you given, and continue to give the majority of your money to the poor?

No, because that's not even remotely necessary. A Christian is a cheerful giver, though... or will be, the further along in the Christian walk he gets. God, by His Holy Spirit, makes him (her) that way. It's called sanctification, which involves a whole lot of things, but this is one of them. Generosity is a spiritual gift (Romans 12:6-8, particularly 8)... and part of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

This would mean Soteriology is an unnecessary topic.

You know, it kind of is, in an "it is what it is" sort of way. But, I would say that if it was unnecessary, God would not have related it to us. He meant what He said, and He said what He meant. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17); soteriology (Romans 8:29-30) is about the purpose and power of God to save. But to each his own, I guess.

Interesting... I guess I'll have to wait and see if your assertions hold against logic above

Well they will, if you change your "logic." Hey, so you would still say you're "just trying to understand," right? And not just trying to shoot holes, as it were?

Grace and peace to you.

[POI]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Hmm... So if a professed Christian does not genuinely feel remorseful/regretful for marrying the same sex, then they are not really a Christian?

Not necessarily. But it's certainly cause for concern.

You seem to be back peddling here You already said "yes" to "regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required".

Many professed Christians, who are gay, happily marry their same sex partners. This would mean, by your definition, they cannot be a Christian. Unless you wish to now add a new caveat... That "Christian" married gay people are all secretly remorseful/regretful?

Yes, the Bible is clear. If you are rich, you must not be a Christian. But what exactly does Jesus consider 'rich'?

No, that's not what Jesus teaches in that passage. There's nothing wrong with being rich, but rather in thinking you are self-sustaining and not in need of a Savior, which, if one is rich, is a much easier pit to fall into. Read Luke 14 again with that in mind. To answer your question, though, if we have Jesus, we are rich ~ regardless of our earthly largesse (or lack thereof). If we do not, then we are dirt poor ~ again, regardless of our earthly largesse (or lack thereof). Do you not think God can bless the rich and the poor alike? Because He can... and does.

Giving away your material wealth IS what it teaches in that passage. He tells all the followers to do this. When asked what is takes to be saved, Jesus repeatedly tells would-be followers what it takes. Giving up your wealth is repeatedly one of them.

Unless you now admit His messages are not consistent? And even if you can make a case, that He is only speaking to certain individuals, HOW do you know YOU are not one of these individuals; which need to give up the majority of your wealth to the poor?

So, how much of your wealth do you give to the poor? It's better to be safe that sorry, right? You would not want to demonstrate a low level of faith; which might not meet Jesus' requirement(s) for salvation.

Have you given, and continue to give the majority of your money to the poor?

No, because that's not even remotely necessary. A Christian is a cheerful giver, though... or will be, the further along in the Christian walk he gets. God, by His Holy Spirit, makes him (her) that way. It's called sanctification, which involves a whole lot of things, but this is one of them. Generosity is a spiritual gift (Romans 12:6-8, particularly 8)... and part of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

This would mean Soteriology is an unnecessary topic.

You know, it kind of is, in an "it is what it is" sort of way. But, I would say that if it was unnecessary, God would not have related it to us. He meant what He said, and He said what He meant. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17); soteriology (Romans 8:29-30) is about the purpose and power of God to save. But to each his own, I guess.

Interesting... I guess I'll have to wait and see if your assertions hold against logic above

Well they will, if you change your "logic." Hey, so you would still say you're "just trying to understand," right? And not just trying to shoot holes, as it were?

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, I'm trying to understand. I'm also trying to make sense of your inconsistencies?

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Hmm... So if a professed Christian does not genuinely feel remorseful/regretful for marrying the same sex, then they are not really a Christian?

Not necessarily. But it's certainly cause for concern.

You seem to be back peddling here You already said "yes" to "regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required".

No back-pedaling. I mean... I guess I've been guilty of that before; we all have. But here, no. Repentance is required, not just regret/remorsefulness, which is really just an emotion. But regret/remorsefulness can be closely associated with conviction, which, in the right context, the Holy Spirit is certainly responsible for, and, in that context, leads to repentance. It's God's kindness that leads Christians to repentance (Romans 2:4). So if one is not remorseful/regretful regarding his/her homosexuality ~ or any one of his/her sins ~ then there can be no conviction, which may ~ may ~ mean that the person does not have the Holy Spirit at work in him/her, and that would mean that the person does not have a regenerate heart ~ be born again of the Spirit ~ and thus not a Christian. Ergo, the cause for concern.

Many professed Christians, who are gay, happily marry their same sex partners. This would mean, by your definition, they cannot be a Christian. Unless you wish to now add a new caveat... That "Christian" married gay people are all secretly remorseful/regretful?

Nope. Yet again, it might, but not necessarily. See above.

Unless you wish to now add a new caveat... That "Christian" married gay people are all secretly remorseful/regretful?

This is an excellent point. Yes, some gay, happily married Christians may have an internal struggle going on regarding their homosexuality. I know some of these... They may know (using Paul's words in Romans 1) that they have "dishonorable passions," that they have "exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature" and/or are "consumed with passion for (people of the same sex)" and "committing shameless acts with (others of the same gender)," and thus secretly remorseful/regretful. And they may be struggling toward repentance, which, Biblically, is a complete change of direction (180° turn) toward God. This is the Christian walk in this life: there is a war going on within us. We are all sinful in one way or another, and we struggle with it, having even what we might call besetting sins. As Paul puts it, we are struggling to put off the old man and put on the new (Ephesians 4:22-24). But God, in His kindness, leads believers to repentance (Romans 2:4).

And, you know, I hesitated at first, but I would say 'all' rather than just 'some.' On some level, and in one way or another, we are all regretful/remorseful; we know what we're doing ~ how ever we are sinning ~ is wrong. But some, again using Paul's words in Romans 1, "by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." But, yes, all sinners can be Christians...

Giving away your material wealth IS what it teaches in that passage. He tells all the followers to do this. When asked what is takes to be saved, Jesus repeatedly tells would-be followers what it takes. Giving up your wealth is repeatedly one of them.

Well, if one gives away all his/her material wealth (which may actually be very meager, considering who He was talking to in Luke 12), then one cannot live and provide for himself/herself. Do you think that's what Jesus is teaching here? Well, of course not. Yes, one of God's many names is Jehovah Jireh, which means “The LORD Will Provide” (Genesis 22:14). But He does all that He does through, including providing for us, through our earthly circumstances. He doesn't just send us the money we need to live by Fed Ex. I digress...

Anyway, so what Jesus is really saying/teaching in Luke 12 (and in other passages) has to be something other than merely "giving away your material wealth." Okay, so this is Luke 12:33-34, not Luke 14, as you said above ~ a minor point of order. Jesus was speaking here to people who were, by and large, not wealthy. They didn't have a lot of possessions; most of them had practically none. That should have some effect on how we see this passage. The passage is about generosity, which, as I said, is a spiritual gift and part of the fruit of the spirit. And the emphasis there is on possessions, which may in some peoples' cases be money but can be a great variety of things, even intangible, non-material things. The contrast that Jesus is drawing here is to the world's preoccupation with possessions. Christians, like the disciples, are to be characterized by exceedingly great generosity, especially in giving to those in need. We are to be generous with all our gifts, because God is so generous and merciful to us. This even has eternal implications ~ for, as Jesus solemnly warns, "where your treasure is" (whether on earth or in heaven) "there will your heart be also." This concluding proverb emphasizes the importance of the disposition of one's heart, which throughout Scripture, especially by Jesus, over and over again, represents the center of one's being and one's deepest desires, including one's reason, convictions, emotions, and will. The nature of one's heart is reflected in the things that one values most.

Unless you now admit His messages are not consistent?

No. They are not inconsistent in any way.

You would not want to demonstrate a low level of faith; which might not meet Jesus' requirement(s) for salvation.

For sure, we are to demonstrate the faith we have been gifted with by God for the earthly benefit of others (which can take many different forms). This manifests itself in the form of works, but the works we do are the result ~ the natural and generous outpouring ~ of the faith we have been given by God Himself. Yes, we are, as Paul says in Philippians 2:13-14, to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us (Christians), both to will and to work for His good pleasure. This is not difficult to understand, but can be easily misunderstood. Working out our own salvation does not mean that we are responsible for our salvation or that our salvation depends on our good works. If it did, then what he was saying to the Philippians would be contrary to Romans 9:16, where Paul is very clear that our salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy, and that is certainly not the case. So, we do the willing and working, but it is because of God's work in us, so that we will and work for His good pleasure, which means that He carries out His purposes through us and our works, which, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And Paul is finishing what he said earlier to the Philippians, that He who began a good work in you will ~ will, without fail ~ bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (1:6).

Yes, I'm trying to understand.

Doesn't seem so, but I'll take your word for it. Maybe it's both (trying to understand and trying to shoot holes).

I'm also trying to make sense of your inconsistencies?

Perception is not always reality.

Grace and peace to you.

[1213]

...
Sin - "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law".
...

I accept only Biblical definition for sin, when we are speaking of sin in Biblical context.

Is lying auto-forgiven, because you are a believer? If so, do you still need to repent of sin?

Or, do you still need to actively repent of your acknowledged sin, for which you still commit?

Why would it be "auto-forgive"? I think lying is wrong and it would be better to stop lying.

[POI]

Are you saying that regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required? Or, must you actively ask for forgiveness of these identified sins?

Yes. And as for the second question, sins of omission as well as those of commission.

Hmm... So if a professed Christian does not genuinely feel remorseful/regretful for marrying the same sex, then they are not really a Christian?

Not necessarily. But it's certainly cause for concern.

You seem to be back peddling here You already said "yes" to "regret/remorse for any self identified transgression is all that is required".

No back-pedaling. I mean... I guess I've been guilty of that before; we all have. But here, no. Repentance is required, not just regret/remorsefulness, which is really just an emotion. But regret/remorsefulness can be closely associated with conviction, which, in the right context, the Holy Spirit is certainly responsible for, and, in that context, leads to repentance. It's God's kindness that leads Christians to repentance (Romans 2:4). So if one is not remorseful/regretful regarding his/her homosexuality ~ or any one of his/her sins ~ then there can be no conviction, which may ~ may ~ mean that the person does not have the Holy Spirit at work in him/her, and that would mean that the person does not have a regenerate heart ~ be born again of the Spirit ~ and thus not a Christian. Ergo, the cause for concern.

Before, you stated "all that is required is being remorseful/regretful." And now, it looks like you are saying the minimum requirement for salvation is "asking for repentance". ---> As you state in bold red above. Thus, if a gay couple does not ask God to be forgiven for their sin, and then get a divorce, they are not going to Heaven. Why? Because you have stated "Repentance is required."

Repentance would not mean anything to God, if they continue to stay married, right?

Thus far, it looks like the minimum requirements for salvation, according to you, are as follows:

Believe and worship, and repent of ALL known sins. Why? Because you said so above. Moving along...

Unless you wish to now add a new caveat... That "Christian" married gay people are all secretly remorseful/regretful?

This is an excellent point. Yes, some gay, happily married Christians may have an internal struggle going on regarding their homosexuality. I know some of these... They may know (using Paul's words in Romans 1) that they have "dishonorable passions," that they have "exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature" and/or are "consumed with passion for (people of the same sex)" and "committing shameless acts with (others of the same gender)," and thus secretly remorseful/regretful. And they may be struggling toward repentance, which, Biblically, is a complete change of direction (180° turn) toward God. This is the Christian walk in this life: there is a war going on within us. We are all sinful in one way or another, and we struggle with it, having even what we might call besetting sins. As Paul puts it, we are struggling to put off the old man and put on the new (Ephesians 4:22-24). But God, in His kindness, leads believers to repentance (Romans 2:4).

And, you know, I hesitated at first, but I would say 'all' rather than just 'some.' On some level, and in one way or another, we are all regretful/remorseful; we know what we're doing ~ how ever we are sinning ~ is wrong. But some, again using Paul's words in Romans 1, "by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." But, yes, all sinners can be Christians...

According to you, the minimum required is repentance. You stated yourself, feeling remorseful/regretful, are just emotions. They can know they are in the wrong, based upon their moral conscious, but are not actively giving repentance for their transgressions. God identifies homosexuality as a sin. If a gay person continues to practice homosexuality, after asking for forgiveness, then are they truly repenting? ---> Just like if a prostitute repents of prostitution, but then continues to turn tricks, are they truly repenting? Are these individuals going to hell? If not, why not?

Repenting of a sin, for which you will continue to willfully do, is not true repentance, is it?

Thus, do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell? According to you, looks like they have a one-way ticket to hell.

Giving away your material wealth IS what it teaches in that passage. He tells all the followers to do this. When asked what is takes to be saved, Jesus repeatedly tells would-be followers what it takes. Giving up your wealth is repeatedly one of them.

Well, if one gives away all his/her material wealth (which may actually be very meager, considering who He was talking to in Luke 12), then one cannot live and provide for himself/herself. Do you think that's what Jesus is teaching here? Well, of course not. Yes, one of God's many names is Jehovah Jireh, which means “The LORD Will Provide” (Genesis 22:14). But He does all that He does through, including providing for us, through our earthly circumstances. He doesn't just send us the money we need to live by Fed Ex. I digress...

Anyway, so what Jesus is really saying/teaching in Luke 12 (and in other passages) has to be something other than merely "giving away your material wealth." Okay, so this is Luke 12:33-34, not Luke 14, as you said above ~ a minor point of order. Jesus was speaking here to people who were, by and large, not wealthy. They didn't have a lot of possessions; most of them had practically none. That should have some effect on how we see this passage. The passage is about generosity, which, as I said, is a spiritual gift and part of the fruit of the spirit. And the emphasis there is on possessions, which may in some peoples' cases be money but can be a great variety of things, even intangible, non-material things. The contrast that Jesus is drawing here is to the world's preoccupation with possessions. Christians, like the disciples, are to be characterized by exceedingly great generosity, especially in giving to those in need. We are to be generous with all our gifts, because God is so generous and merciful to us. This even has eternal implications ~ for, as Jesus solemnly warns, "where your treasure is" (whether on earth or in heaven) "there will your heart be also." This concluding proverb emphasizes the importance of the disposition of one's heart, which throughout Scripture, especially by Jesus, over and over again, represents the center of one's being and one's deepest desires, including one's reason, convictions, emotions, and will. The nature of one's heart is reflected in the things that one values most.

***********

For sure, we are to demonstrate the faith we have been gifted with by God for the earthly benefit of others (which can take many different forms). This manifests itself in the form of works, but the works we do are the result ~ the natural and generous outpouring ~ of the faith we have been given by God Himself. Yes, we are, as Paul says in Philippians 2:13-14, to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us (Christians), both to will and to work for His good pleasure. This is not difficult to understand, but can be easily misunderstood. Working out our own salvation does not mean that we are responsible for our salvation or that our salvation depends on our good works. If it did, then what he was saying to the Philippians would be contrary to Romans 9:16, where Paul is very clear that our salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy, and that is certainly not the case. So, we do the willing and working, but it is because of God's work in us, so that we will and work for His good pleasure, which means that He carries out His purposes through us and our works, which, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And Paul is finishing what he said earlier to the Philippians, that He who began a good work in you will ~ will, without fail ~ bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (1:6).

Such Biblical passages look to be quite reckless and clumsy. Why?

You do not know how much of your wealth you are to give away, to demonstrate your devotion to Jesus over material items. It may be as simple as cherishing any material possession, at all, displeases Jesus in a way to where He deems you worshiping possessions over Him. Thus, if you do not get rid of as many of them, as possible, maybe at judgement day, He will deem your faith as unacceptable.

Thus, I ask you... Have you gotten rid of any possession, for which you cherish? Have you given the majority of your wealth to the poor? Do you live like Jesus' chosen disciples? I bet you do not. I again reiterate... It wouldn't hurt to give away almost all, and continue to give away your future earnings, to assure Jesus does not deem you attached to worldly possessions over Him. What do you have to loose? The more you give away, the more rewards you will receive in Heaven, right? This life is temporary and Heaven is forever, right? Don't invest in any wealth here on earth. The more you give away here on earth, the more you will be blessed in Heaven, right?

So, I ask anew... Do you live in a one bedroom flat, with merely enough food to eat for the day, and have no personal possessions which might be seen as coveted by the Lord?

Yes, I'm trying to understand.

Doesn't seem so, but I'll take your word for it. Maybe it's both (trying to understand and trying to shoot holes).

I'm trying to pin down what YOU perceive as the minimum requirements for salvation? The more we converse, the more it becomes confusing. Maybe it will get better, as we move forward?

And I do not have to shoot any holes in there. Thus far, you are doing it for me Again, hopefully some consistency will start to prevail, after we work through all of this...?.?. Fingers crossed.

[PinSeeker]

Repentance would not mean anything to God, if they continue to stay married, right?

Being or staying married really has nothing to do with it. Last I checked, marriage was not a sin.

Thus far, it looks like the minimum requirements for salvation, according to you, are as follows: Believe and worship, and repent of ALL known sins. Why? Because you said so above. Moving along...

Actually, all I said that was required was belief and repentance, and on repentance, sins of omission and commission. That's what I said above. Funny how these discussions seem to quite often devolve into attempts to stuff words in my mouth. But, so it goes. Yes, moving along. I like that idea.

According to you, the minimum required is repentance.

Well, yet again, repentance and belief.

If a gay person continues to practice homosexuality, after asking for forgiveness, then are they truly repenting?

That's... the question I'm asking you, POI.

Are these individuals going to hell?

Possibly. But they still have time to repent, right POI? Yes, so, possibly.

Thus, do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

See above. Possibly.

According to you, looks like they have a one-way ticket to hell... I'm trying to pin down what YOU perceive as the minimum requirements for salvation.

Nope, and nope. You're putting words in my mouth, and I know why. You're not "trying to understand" in any shape, way, or form. Which I've known all along.

I do not have to shoot any holes in there. Thus far, you are doing it for me

As long as you continue to use such faulty logic and attribute assertions to me that I never made, you will continue to think that, I'm sure.

This "conversation" is over, POI.

Grace and peace to you.

[POI]

Repentance would not mean anything to God, if they continue to stay married, right?

Being or staying married really has nothing to do with it. Last I checked, marriage was not a sin.

Thus far, it looks like the minimum requirements for salvation, according to you, are as follows: Believe and worship, and repent of ALL known sins. Why? Because you said so above. Moving along...

Actually, all I said that was required was belief and repentance, and on repentance, sins of omission and commission. That's what I said above. Funny how these discussions seem to quite often devolve into attempts to stuff words in my mouth. But, so it goes. Yes, moving along. I like that idea.

According to you, the minimum required is repentance.

Well, yet again, repentance and belief.

If a gay person continues to practice homosexuality, after asking for forgiveness, then are they truly repenting?

That's... the question I'm asking you, POI.

Are these individuals going to hell?

Possibly. But they still have time to repent, right POI? Yes, so, possibly.

Thus, do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

See above. Possibly.

According to you, looks like they have a one-way ticket to hell... I'm trying to pin down what YOU perceive as the minimum requirements for salvation.

Nope, and nope. You're putting words in my mouth, and I know why. You're not "trying to understand" in any shape, way, or form. Which I've known all along.

I do not have to shoot any holes in there. Thus far, you are doing it for me

As long as you continue to use such faulty logic and attribute assertions to me that I never made, you will continue to think that, I'm sure.

This "conversation" is over, POI.

Grace and peace to you.

(Bold red) - Now whom is putting words into who's mouth? If you think this has been nothing more than a game a long, why are you stopping now? What has now changed about this game, for which you feel I have been playing all along?

If this truly IS your last response, please allow me to divulge information, for which I kind of have been alluding to, from the jump. In fact, I think I all ready told you this verbatim...

I'm not trying to discredit the Bible, merely by pointing out it's vast inconsistencies. No. The objective of this post is to demonstrate, that even if you ARE a true-blue believer, and you wish to follow the Bible for instruction on salvation, GOOD LUCK!

I'm sorry If I made you frustrated? I'm sorry if you find me 'deceptive'. But you appear to have knowingly volunteered into this self-perceived 'game'. And I can only ask why? Now that the shoe is on the other proverbial foot, I'll take a guess...

You were curious of what I had to offer? Maybe you felt you had iron clad answers? Maybe you thought you might change my direction, or prove me wrong in something? Who knows?

If you again read though the conversation thread, you will see that it not you or me, whom is to blame for the inconsistency. No. It's the Book. It is not consistent. You or I cannot be consistent, because it is not consistent. This has nothing to do with whether or not the Book is true. However, at best, seems rather curious that Jesus does not care to clearly spell out what it takes to be saved.

It would really be no different than you and I sharing a fictional movie, and disagreeing on the plot

Any ways, if you care to pick up where we left off, let me know? Otherwise, I will not address your responses, as you already told me you will no longer engage.

And BTW, you seem like a very nice and genuine person. Too bad, it seems, that your core belief, is now forcing your hand to 'go to bat' for a Book which looks to have been provided, at best, by the 'purveyor of confusion.'