Mis-information

[nobspeople]

I've heard some believers say things like fossils, dinosaurs, vestigial leg bones in whales, and the like that comes up in science is the devil planting misinformation to prevent people from believing in the bible, god et al.
What are your thought?
Do you think god would allow the devil to do such a thing?

[1213]

. . . How about the observation that the Sun revolved around the Earth? It was an observation whose "truth" even came with the backing of the Catholic Church....

In many cases it may be just speaking of how things seemingly go, not necessarily meant as absolute objective non-relative fact. However, I don’t think it can really be proven that earth rotates round the sun.

[Miles]

. . . How about the observation that the Sun revolved around the Earth? It was an observation whose "truth" even came with the backing of the Catholic Church....

In many cases it may be just speaking of how things seemingly go, not necessarily meant as absolute objective non-relative fact.

Just what is the it you're referring to? And what the heck is an "absolute objective non-relative fact"?

However, I don’t think it can really be proven that earth rotates round the sun.

Which isn't surprising.


.

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

I've heard some believers say things like fossils, dinosaurs, vestigial leg bones in whales, and the like that comes up in science is the devil planting misinformation to prevent people from believing in the bible, god et al.
What are your thought?

As if there is any need whatsoever for the Adversary to plant dinosaur bones (etc), in order to plant misinformation and confusion among people, lol! Just look at the many religions and sects ("daughters") in the world, the confusion, the misinformation and lies and corruption, etc. That would still exist without fossils, dinosaur bones, vestigial leg bones in whales and the like.


Physical evidence is not the problem. I think 1213 is correct when he says that how the evidence is interpreted, that is the problem. Human error is a real thing. In science, in religion, in medicine, in every area. The evidence is the evidence; how man interprets that evidence is where error comes in; the conclusions that man draws. Especially since man draws conclusions while having only some puzzle pieces, and not all of them.


In that vein, I cannot quite agree with the saying (from the pic above):

"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted the data."

Or men have misinterpreted the data from the bible. (and the data could also be incorrect, mishandled; or due to translation errors; erring pen of the scribes)


Regardless, science/actual evidence and God will not be in conflict. The problem is man's (mis)understanding of one or the other (or both).



Peace again to you.

Your mention of vestigial bones in whales points up where the misrepresentation - not misinterpretation but misrepresentation..that is to say, lies, lies. The argument of the anti -evolutionists rested on the interpretation of the hind bones in Whales. By themselves they were enough to support evolution because they looked like vestigial legbones, not just something God hath made to help the male whale hold on during reproduction. But they totally ignored the front flippers that are as leg and hand -like as anyone could ask. Just look at the whale -skeleton and it's there in front of yore werry eyes.

Now the only excuse there is monumental incompetence and I can't rule that out, but in fact I'd put my money on deliberate lies. Take for instance the Ken Hamm debunking of Lucy on the grounds that it's only an ape because the spine enters from the back. It doesn't - it enters from below - like a human. That was a lie.

But in fact it's more complex than that. And it all comes down to evidence doesn't matter; Faith does and it doesn't matter what the Facts are, it only matters to present the Data to support the faith. Or to ignore it when it doesn't. That's why you need people like us.

Incidentally. Facts - a bit of equivocation there.

Fact (plural facts) (1) what actually is the real situation, no matter what humans think about it;

(2) What reliable verification has shown to be what that actual reality is.

The earth thought to be flat, now shown to be not flat is a Fact (no matter what the flat earthists believe) where science corrected an original misinterpretation of the observed data.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I always laugh to myself (a few times even out loud), even when I was a christian, when someone uses the bible to prove the bible true, without even seeming to admit it's, at best, circular reasoning: the bible says the bibles is true so I believe it's true because it says.

I didn't use the bible to prove the bible true. I used the bible (well something written in the bible) to counter something you think should be happening in Christianity if indeed God were real.

But there are not many people who believe Him, truly, or even that He is truly alive and capable of leading and teaching and training His sheep, Himself.

Not many? I'd bet there are simply a 'handful' throughout history, when it comes right down to it. Thus far, I've not met many in person or online, based on their actions and (online at least) their words.

Okay, then you have an answer for why Christianity is not more in agreement, an answer that has nothing to do with God not being real.


Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I've heard some believers say things like fossils, dinosaurs, vestigial leg bones in whales, and the like that comes up in science is the devil planting misinformation to prevent people from believing in the bible, god et al.
What are your thought?

As if there is any need whatsoever for the Adversary to plant dinosaur bones (etc), in order to plant misinformation and confusion among people, lol! Just look at the many religions and sects ("daughters") in the world, the confusion, the misinformation and lies and corruption, etc. That would still exist without fossils, dinosaur bones, vestigial leg bones in whales and the like.


Physical evidence is not the problem. I think 1213 is correct when he says that how the evidence is interpreted, that is the problem. Human error is a real thing. In science, in religion, in medicine, in every area. The evidence is the evidence; how man interprets that evidence is where error comes in; the conclusions that man draws. Especially since man draws conclusions while having only some puzzle pieces, and not all of them.


In that vein, I cannot quite agree with the saying (from the pic above):

"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted the data."

Or men have misinterpreted the data from the bible. (and the data could also be incorrect, mishandled; or due to translation errors; erring pen of the scribes)


Regardless, science/actual evidence and God will not be in conflict. The problem is man's (mis)understanding of one or the other (or both).



Peace again to you.

Your mention of vestigial bones in whales points up where the misrepresentation - not misinterpretation but misrepresentation..that is to say, lies, lies. The argument of the anti -evolutionists rested on the interpretation of the hind bones in Whales. By themselves they were enough to support evolution because they looked like vestigial legbones, not just something God hath made to help the male whale hold on during reproduction. But they totally ignored the front flippers that are as leg and hand -like as anyone could ask. Just look at the whale -skeleton and it's there in front of yore werry eyes.

I only mentioned what the OP mentioned. You do get that I didn't argue against those things (vestigial bones, dinosaur bones, fossils, etc), right?

Now the only excuse there is monumental incompetence and I can't rule that out, but in fact I'd put my money on deliberate lies. Take for instance the Ken Hamm debunking of Lucy on the grounds that it's only an ape because the spine enters from the back. It doesn't - it enters from below - like a human. That was a lie.

Perhaps both. I don't know. I never followed any of those things. I don't even know who Ken Hamm is (I have heard the name, and I can get the gist from your comments, but other than that, I don't know).

But in fact it's more complex than that. And it all comes down to evidence doesn't matter; Faith does and it doesn't matter what the Facts are, it only matters to present the Data to support the faith. Or to ignore it when it doesn't. That's why you need people like us.

Who is the "you" and the "us"?

Because I didn't disagree with the fact that there is misinformation being spread (even that the majority of it comes from religion). I have no problem with science. I do not think every conclusion in science is accurate (some things are bound to change as more evidence is presented, as more advanced tools are created to discover that evidence, etc.), but I have no problem with it.

I have nothing to fear (not for me, nor for my faith) from science.

Like I said - science is not in conflict with God. Only man's (mis)understanding of one or the other or both.

Incidentally. Facts - a bit of equivocation there.

Fact (plural facts) (1) what actually is the real situation, no matter what humans think about it;

Sure.

Truth is also the real situation, no matter what humans think about it. Truth does not change. But what was once considered fact can indeed change, as new information or evidence presents itself. I don't think you would disagree with that. Perhaps you would state that an actual fact does not change. Just as the actual truth does not change.

(2) What reliable verification has shown to be what that actual reality is.

Okay, that might be what a fact is... but a truth is true even if it has not yet been scientifically verified. It was always true that germs/microorganisms existed and made people sick, long before it was ever a verified fact.

The earth thought to be flat, now shown to be not flat is a Fact (no matter what the flat earthists believe) where science corrected an original misinterpretation of the observed data.

Sure.

And if that had been stated as a fact (or as a truth) at one point, then whoever made that statement would have been wrong. Human error (misunderstanding).



Peace again to you!

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I've heard some believers say things like fossils, dinosaurs, vestigial leg bones in whales, and the like that comes up in science is the devil planting misinformation to prevent people from believing in the bible, god et al.
What are your thought?

As if there is any need whatsoever for the Adversary to plant dinosaur bones (etc), in order to plant misinformation and confusion among people, lol! Just look at the many religions and sects ("daughters") in the world, the confusion, the misinformation and lies and corruption, etc. That would still exist without fossils, dinosaur bones, vestigial leg bones in whales and the like.


Physical evidence is not the problem. I think 1213 is correct when he says that how the evidence is interpreted, that is the problem. Human error is a real thing. In science, in religion, in medicine, in every area. The evidence is the evidence; how man interprets that evidence is where error comes in; the conclusions that man draws. Especially since man draws conclusions while having only some puzzle pieces, and not all of them.


In that vein, I cannot quite agree with the saying (from the pic above):

"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted the data."

Or men have misinterpreted the data from the bible. (and the data could also be incorrect, mishandled; or due to translation errors; erring pen of the scribes)


Regardless, science/actual evidence and God will not be in conflict. The problem is man's (mis)understanding of one or the other (or both).



Peace again to you.

Your mention of vestigial bones in whales points up where the misrepresentation - not misinterpretation but misrepresentation..that is to say, lies, lies. The argument of the anti -evolutionists rested on the interpretation of the hind bones in Whales. By themselves they were enough to support evolution because they looked like vestigial legbones, not just something God hath made to help the male whale hold on during reproduction. But they totally ignored the front flippers that are as leg and hand -like as anyone could ask. Just look at the whale -skeleton and it's there in front of yore werry eyes.

I only mentioned what the OP mentioned. You do get that I didn't argue against those things (vestigial bones, dinosaur bones, fossils, etc), right?

Now the only excuse there is monumental incompetence and I can't rule that out, but in fact I'd put my money on deliberate lies. Take for instance the Ken Hamm debunking of Lucy on the grounds that it's only an ape because the spine enters from the back. It doesn't - it enters from below - like a human. That was a lie.

Perhaps both. I don't know. I never followed any of those things. I don't even know who Ken Hamm is (I have heard the name, and I can get the gist from your comments, but other than that, I don't know).

But in fact it's more complex than that. And it all comes down to evidence doesn't matter; Faith does and it doesn't matter what the Facts are, it only matters to present the Data to support the faith. Or to ignore it when it doesn't. That's why you need people like us.

Who is the "you" and the "us"?

Because I didn't disagree with the fact that there is misinformation being spread (even that the majority of it comes from religion). I have no problem with science. I do not think every conclusion in science is accurate (some things are bound to change as more evidence is presented, as more advanced tools are created to discover that evidence, etc.), but I have no problem with it.

I have nothing to fear (not for me, nor for my faith) from science.

Like I said - science is not in conflict with God. Only man's (mis)understanding of one or the other or both.

Incidentally. Facts - a bit of equivocation there.

Fact (plural facts) (1) what actually is the real situation, no matter what humans think about it;

Sure.

Truth is also the real situation, no matter what humans think about it. Truth does not change. But what was once considered fact can indeed change, as new information or evidence presents itself. I don't think you would disagree with that. Perhaps you would state that an actual fact does not change. Just as the actual truth does not change.

(2) What reliable verification has shown to be what that actual reality is.

Okay, that might be what a fact is... but a truth is true even if it has not yet been scientifically verified. It was always true that germs/microorganisms existed and made people sick, long before it was ever a verified fact.

The earth thought to be flat, now shown to be not flat is a Fact (no matter what the flat earthists believe) where science corrected an original misinterpretation of the observed data.

Sure.

And if that had been stated as a fact (or as a truth) at one point, then whoever made that statement would have been wrong. Human error (misunderstanding).



Peace again to you!

Ok. First, don't see this as Personal - it is an argument about the situation. 'You' is the populace that is being fed misinformation, which examples I gave regarding the whale bones - which you mentioned in your post as (so I recall) something science might have misinterpreted. 'We' are those of us who can clear up the misunderstanding, or deliberate misrepresentation.

I have to disagree with your apparent suggestion that nothing (presented as 'fact' by science) is sure; 'some things are bound to change as evidence is presented'. It is true that what science has in the books is always being changed or added to as more is discovered. But you can't think of this as meaning that we can't rely on or at least credit as far more credible that alternatives, the more validated 'facts' and the scientific Theories and laws. Dark matter and energy is still rather theoretical and more sesearch is needed. New evidence could change the whole thing.

The laws of Newton, Relativity and Quantum physics are for sure and additional evidence will only add to or clarify those facts, not overturn them. The heliocentric system, non -flat earth and evolution are 'facts' (sense 2 as I said above) and it would be wrong to suggest that no faith can be put in them on the grounds that 'science doesn't know everything/science is always changing its' mind'.

And yes, it was a fact that germs made people sick, even when the Bible was teaching that it was evil spirits. It was science, not revelation that corrected that misperception of the data (people got sick) and that has been the case all the way - science has corrected Bible claims.

To clarify:
Trans.

The earth thought to be flat, now shown to be not flat is a Fact (no matter what the flat earthists believe) where science corrected an original misinterpretation of the observed data.

(You) Sure.
Thais is Fact in sense 2. What is demonstrably what we know that is shown to be the reality.

(You) And if that had been stated as a fact (or as a truth) at one point, then whoever made that statement would have been wrong. Human error (misunderstanding).

That is fact is sense 1. What was the reality, even when people had it wrong.

Confusing the two led ( I suggested) to you and your opponent talking at cross -purposes.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #24]

I used the bible (well something written in the bible) to counter something you think should be happening in Christianity if indeed God were real.

Curious. What's the different in 'the bible' and 'something written in the bible'?

Okay, then you have an answer for why Christianity is not more in agreement, an answer that has nothing to do with God not being real.

Because flawed people can't be counted on to represent a perfect being? Of course, I've said that numerous times. However, many don't accept that, saying things like 'the spirit came upon them and they could do it'. So the spirit must have issues as the gospels aren't in total agreement either.
So either god incompetent, the spirit is incompetent or the people are. Being I've experience people, but never the spirit of god definitely, I'd saw the people are incompetent about writing about something that doesn't exist.
So yes, it does have something to do with 'god being real'. Or at least 'real' enough to care.

But please, show god's real. You'll be the only person in history to do so.

[1213]

. . . How about the observation that the Sun revolved around the Earth? It was an observation whose "truth" even came with the backing of the Catholic Church....

In many cases it may be just speaking of how things seemingly go, not necessarily meant as absolute objective non-relative fact.

Just what is the it you're referring to?

I meant, people even today may say for example that "sun sets", or otherwise moves, all though they may believe that it is the earth that actually moves. From observers point of view it is the sun that moves.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #26]

Ok. First, don't see this as Personal - it is an argument about the situation. 'You' is the populace that is being fed misinformation, which examples I gave regarding the whale bones - which you mentioned in your post as (so I recall) something science might have misinterpreted. 'We' are those of us who can clear up the misunderstanding, or deliberate misrepresentation.

I did not suggest vestigial whale bones were something that science might have misinterpreted. The only reason I even mentioned them is because they were an example from the OP, but I did not suggest that they were an example of misinformation.

I have to disagree with your apparent suggestion that nothing (presented as 'fact' by science) is sure; 'some things are bound to change as evidence is presented'.

I also never suggested that at all.

This is what I said:

I do not think every conclusion in science is accurate (some things are bound to change as more evidence is presented, as more advanced tools are created to discover that evidence, etc.), but I have no problem with it.

Do you disagree with what I actually said?

To clarify:
Trans.

The earth thought to be flat, now shown to be not flat is a Fact (no matter what the flat earthists believe) where science corrected an original misinterpretation of the observed data.

(You) Sure.
Thais is Fact in sense 2. What is demonstrably what we know that is shown to be the reality.

(You) And if that had been stated as a fact (or as a truth) at one point, then whoever made that statement would have been wrong. Human error (misunderstanding).

That is fact is sense 1. What was the reality, even when people had it wrong.

Confusing the two led ( I suggested) to you and your opponent talking at cross -purposes.

I'm sorry, but are you sure you're not mixing me up with someone else? I did not have an opponent on this thread with whom I could have been talking at cross-purposes with, over fact in sense 1 or 2.


Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #24]

I used the bible (well something written in the bible) to counter something you think should be happening in Christianity if indeed God were real.

Curious. What's the different in 'the bible' and 'something written in the bible'?

Because people use 'the bible' as if it is a single book and a single word. I was just being accurate; I did not mean to detract from the point. The point was that I did not use the bible to prove the bible, as you suggested. I used the bible to counter what you think should be happening in Christianity if indeed God were real.

Okay, then you have an answer for why Christianity is not more in agreement, an answer that has nothing to do with God not being real.

Because flawed people can't be counted on to represent a perfect being?

No, because - as you said you believed - not many people truly believe what Christ has said, or that He is alive. Now, if not many people truly believe Christ (or even that He is alive), then how can those same people truly be Christian?



Peace again to you.