Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #96]

God will set the life and death choice before us and we will choose between the two options:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The following verse explains how our choice will be made.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Whosoever believeth will have everlasting life, and all others perish. So believing is the minimum and only requirement.

And God must be just and true in everything He does:

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

To be just and true, every human must understand the consequences of either choice and what will be expected of them if they choose everlasting life. This is explained in the gospel. Therefore, every human who ever lived will be preached the good news of the gospel prior to making their decision:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

In addition, every individual must be capable of completely understanding everything preached to them and the consequences of either choice at the time it is explained to them.

There is no "free pass".

And God will honor everyone's individual decision.

[myth-one.com]

But that excuse isn't going to work, is it, either with heaven and hell or an eternal life on earth. The infants will be judged as infants and damned to hell or death before they had a chance to grow and even hear the gospels. They are sinners from before birth, remember.

They have no chance. No hearing, no justice. The only excuse (apart from persistent evasions such as we have been seeing) is to tough it out and say 'God can do as he likes'.

Fine. Then God is an evil vicious dictator according to the Christian theory and I can understand why many would reject Church doctrine and organised religion and prefer a (custom - made) decent and moral god, if they couldn't kick the whole religious thing into touch.

Nope.

Sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments:

For sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

However, to commit a sin, one must first recognize that the act is a sin:

To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

There is evidence that this innocence of children applied to Jesus Christ also:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good[/u][/b]. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. (Isaiah 7:14-16)

Suppose that Mary, Joseph, and Jesus are eating breakfast and Joseph instructs Jesus to stop playing with His food. If Jesus continues playing with His food, He has violated one of the Ten Commandments:

Honor thy father and thy mother... (Exodus 20:12)

However, if Jesus is one month old at the time, it is not a sin if He did not understand Joseph, because sin is knowingly transgressing one of God's laws. Since a month old baby does not understand His father's request, it is not a sin.

[Eloi]

[Replying to POI in post #1]
Many people confuse "salvation" with "going to heaven after death."
What do you mean with "salvation"?

In the Bible the word "salvation" does not have the same meaning as the expression "to go to heaven after death", as many believe. When you start with a false premise, everything you infer is misleading.

[William]

DP

[William]

[Replying to Eloi in post #103]

In the Bible the word "salvation" does not have the same meaning as the expression "to go to heaven after death", as many believe.

What do you say the bible means by the use of the word?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #103]

In the Bible the word "salvation" does not have the same meaning as the expression "to go to heaven after death", as many believe.

What do you say the bible means by the use of the word?

Its normal meaning: being preserved or delivered from danger or destruction.

[POI]

If an infant is raised, they are still an infant. Infants are not mature. The Bible needs to state something about raising the resurrected infant to maturity, so they may later choose.

The bible doesnt spell everything out for its readers,

I'm not going to argue that the Bible needs to address any possible situation that any person can ever dream up. No. However, if the criteria for salvation requires belief, one of the basic knee-jerk follow-up questions would seem to be... "Okay, what is to come of the dead youth or the severely mentally handicapped; who do not possess the capacity for belief?" Why would God not anticipate such a follow-up inquiry? Does He not care to? Did He not think it important enough to address? Did it not occur to Him to address? Other?

I would imagine there exists many, who grieve the loss of their young loved ones, and think they may be burning in hell; due to not believing. The fact that God seems not to have addressed them, may mean that belief is an absolute requirement, and that the ones that do not formulate an active belief, regardless of their reason, are cast into hell to burn?

Is this possible????? Maybe a minimum requirement IS belief. And if you do not, regardless of the reason, you are hosed? Maybe this is why there exists no clear caveats/exceptions?

as The Lord said "Let the reader use discernment" (NWT) as in readers are expected to analyse the information that *is* presented to come to some reasonable conclusions. Scripture is clear on one thing in this regard :

I find this take inconsistent.

- God deems human minds fallible, right?
- Even the earnest Bible believer can conclude that their dead infant or person with severe mental capabilities do not receive free passes, and are sent to hell, because they never actively believed.
- The Bible has no problem spelling out many laws and rules in detail.
- At best, even if the Bible is true, virtually no one agrees with virtually any of it's doctrine. Case/point, you are a JW. I doubt many of your views are agreed upon, when compared to many other opposing 'reasonable' Christian sects. Does this mean the ones that do not agree with you, are not reasonable? (...kind of a rhetorical question)

[POI]

I guess you opted for "or not". You have provided no Verses. Please see below...

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #96]

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

You are plucking a Verse which has no relevancy to my question. Here are the Verses, you provided, in context:

"15 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagueslast, because with them Gods wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of Gods servant Moses and of the Lamb:

"Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations."

The writer is speaking in the first person here. He's stating what He saw. Nothing there speaks about the dead youth or severely mentally incapable of being brought back anew, so they may make a clear choice. Sorry.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

In addition, every individual must be capable of completely understanding everything preached to them and the consequences of either choice at the time it is explained to them.

There is no "free pass".

And God will honor everyone's individual decision.

Nope. Again, nothing here which tells the reader that when dead infants and the mentally incapable are re-raised, they will be made anew, so they may make a sound decision.

I guess you don't have any Verses which tell the reader? Maybe belief IS a requirement. Maybe the reason the Bible does not present exceptions to this rule, means that all the dead infants and mentally incapable are hosed? Unless you wish to redact your prior statement, that all which IS REQUIRED is belief?

[myth-one.com]

I guess you don't have any Verses which tell the reader? Maybe belief IS a requirement. Maybe the reason the Bible does not present exceptions to this rule, means that all the dead infants and mentally incapable are hosed? Unless you wish to redact your prior statement, that all which IS REQUIRED is belief?

Anyone who desires to know what the Bible states about the fate of believers or nonbelievers can read Post #82 on page 9!

Dead humans are buried or cremated. This includes infants and mentally incapable. They are not in heaven or hell, unless by hell you mean their grave.

Do you understand that?

When they are resurrected, they are no longer dead.

Do you understand that?

All that is required is belief!

[POI]

I guess you don't have any Verses which tell the reader? Maybe belief IS a requirement. Maybe the reason the Bible does not present exceptions to this rule, means that all the dead infants and mentally incapable are hosed? Unless you wish to redact your prior statement, that all which IS REQUIRED is belief?

Anyone who desires to know what the Bible states about the fate of believers or nonbelievers can read Post #82 on page 9!

Dead humans are buried or cremated. This includes infants and mentally incapable. They are not in heaven or hell, unless by hell you mean their grave.

Do you understand that?

When they are resurrected, they are no longer dead.

Do you understand that?

All that is required is belief!

This is about the forth circle now.... In regards to the crux of my question, you stated in post #74 (I imagine resurrected human infants will be allowed to grow to maturity before making their decision. That's just my guess.).

Do you understand that?

Yet again, you can re-raise babies hundreds of times. But unless when you re-raise them, and fast-forward their mental capabilities; and unless you undo the ones who are mentally incapable, and re-raising them, the re-raising means nothing. Infants and the mentally challenged are not capable of having a change in heart.

As I stated in post #75; that which can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. Your hopes/wishes/assumptions do not facilitate an answer. If the Bible does not say, then just admit that...

I gave you no push-back, that "you must believe". This assertion is supported in the Bible. My push-back stems from the fact that this requirement excludes babies and the mentally incapable. Looks as though no Verses cover these situations? If you should find any, please let me know? My objective is to explore the minimum requirements for heaven. Thus far, for your interpretation, it's belief; and some are not capable. Therefore, what happens to them?