Could you be tricked into worshiping Lucifer? Let's say God and the Devil make a bet. Lucifer gets his own pocket universe to make as he sees fit. He is to put sentient beings with free will into this universe and say to them that he is God. He is to do all sorts of evil things, and encourage them to do evil things, and whenever they object, he just says that he knows best.
If you are one of the people in this pocket universe, is there anything you can use to reject the false reality you've been given, and do and be good, instead of doing and being evil?
(One thing I will mention is that infinite knowledge, even foreknowledge, does not destroy the premise for this bet anymore than it destroyed the premise for the Job experiment. Lucifer does not have infinite foreknowledge, so God could always be bluffing. So if he is logical, the Devil may still call what, for all he knows, is a bluff, and ask that it be proven to him.)
I'll present four types of people as to how they would react to each moral universe.
---------- False Universe-------------True Universe
Redoni-----Accept-----------------------Reject
Purpella---Accept-----------------------Accept
Grenom----Reject-----------------------Reject
Blueon-----Reject-----------------------Accept
Redoni is probably possible. He would accept the evil universe but reject the one where he's told to do actual good. It's simple selfishness for him and it's about maximising benefit. He can use the false universe to hurt others and take for himself while being perceived as good. Win-win.
Purpella is just going to accept whatever she's told. This is possible. It's possible for people to be deferential. It's also possible for people to be just smart enough to know they're stupid.
Grenom is just a contrarian. He's possible. Contrarians are possible. People who don't like to be told what to do are possible. Sadly I think a lot of atheists (though not a majority, but enough to make an impact on how atheists are perceived) are Grenom.
Blueon, is he possible? That's what I'm asking.
You may also think that Redoni isn't possible and on closer examination I have to say that perhaps he isn't. It would hinge on your definition of good. If good and evil don't have a thing to do with selfishness then my argument that Redoni is possible falls apart, and I admit that.
Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #2.
Could it be that the god of Abraham isn't a true god at all, but actually the Devil/Lucifer/Satan/or whomever who is passing himself off as the creator/god of the universe, which is why so much of what he (D/L/S/or. . .) wrote in his book, The Bible, is such a mishmash of problematic writings? If I was a supernatural believing guy I might very well think so.
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Could it be that the god of Abraham isn't a true god at all, but actually the Devil/Lucifer/Satan/or whomever who is passing himself off as the creator/god of the universe, which is why so much of what he (D/L/S/or. . .) wrote in his book, The Bible, is such a mishmash of problematic writings? If I was a supernatural believing guy I might very well think so.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #3Human limited knowledge would make this almost impossible to determine. Think of a truly mentally disabled person. They simply must accept without question when something seems wrong to them, but you know is right. And if they reject what you're telling them truthfully (but, they have no means to verify) that because of your greater knowledge, this thing is actually best, then they do wrong.
The real God can say to you, kill the Amalekites, and it can seem bad to you, but then it turns out that God was the true God, and not only had this extra knowledge but used it rightly. Those people you killed were actually evil.
But a false God can also say, well, I know best, so shut up and do it, and I just don't see on what basis you'd trust the first guy and not the second.
If you just don't trust anyone and pursue logic instead, that doesn't work if your understanding is really that limited compared to the understanding of others. This is true in our world. It's true of the mentally disabled, the plain stupid, and to some degree it's true of children. There really are people who just have to be told what to do, and they just have to do it.
It seems odd to be living in a multiverse where that first fellow, Redoni, is absolutely possible, but Blueon is not, and it seems like a lopsided multiverse that shouldn't itself be possible, but that's the conclusion I can't avoid if limited understanding is in play.
Remember though that you're so far below these beings that you can't trust your own understanding. I would be curious how you overcome that and even start to suspect which universe you might be living in.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #4You beat me to it. Does one take the red pill or the blue one?Miles wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:36 pm .
Could it be that the god of Abraham isn't a true god at all, but actually the Devil/Lucifer/Satan/or whomever who is passing himself off as the creator/god of the universe, which is why so much of what he (D/L/S/or. . .) wrote in his book, The Bible, is such a mishmash of problematic writings? If I was a supernatural believing guy I might very well think so.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #5[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
Even in the face of evidence against it, people can still worship whatever they want.
One can be tricked into worshipping anything or anyone. All it takes is a good, potentially charismatic person to offer something to someone who is less charismatic and is in need.Could you be tricked into worshiping Lucifer?
Even in the face of evidence against it, people can still worship whatever they want.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #6[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
Generally speaking, I think that evil and good are obvious. Cruelty, selfishness, gossip, impurity, hatred, envy and the like are wrong. Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are all good. If a powerful being came claiming to be god and said that the former list is good and the latter is bad, then I think that it is entirely possible to recognize that this being, no matter how powerful, is not good.
Generally speaking, I think that evil and good are obvious. Cruelty, selfishness, gossip, impurity, hatred, envy and the like are wrong. Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are all good. If a powerful being came claiming to be god and said that the former list is good and the latter is bad, then I think that it is entirely possible to recognize that this being, no matter how powerful, is not good.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #7This is one of the answers I was looking for and it only works if one is entirely confined to a first-order way of thinking about morality.bjs1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:06 pmGenerally speaking, I think that evil and good are obvious. Cruelty, selfishness, gossip, impurity, hatred, envy and the like are wrong. Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are all good. If a powerful being came claiming to be god and said that the former list is good and the latter is bad, then I think that it is entirely possible to recognize that this being, no matter how powerful, is not good.
For example, if a Nazi is standing before you starving, and you have a piece of bread, eat it all, don't split it with him, be selfish, because he is evil.
If God tells you, kill your own child, you trust God and do it. He might stop you, but if he doesn't, all you can know is that it was right. The Bible teaches that God is good but it also teaches obedience to God. I sort of feel like not being willing to do it would have been the right answer if we weren't in the evil one's universe. However, I acknowledge that you can't confine yourself to first-order thinking, whether there's God or not. Being kind and loving when there is evil is not the way to go, though I admit I once thought it was. I thought I had it right. I had to be humbled and put in my place.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #8I disagree that one has to be confined to first-order thinking about morality, though it would have to take precedence over second-order thinking.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:00 pmThis is one of the answers I was looking for and it only works if one is entirely confined to a first-order way of thinking about morality.bjs1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:06 pmGenerally speaking, I think that evil and good are obvious. Cruelty, selfishness, gossip, impurity, hatred, envy and the like are wrong. Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are all good. If a powerful being came claiming to be god and said that the former list is good and the latter is bad, then I think that it is entirely possible to recognize that this being, no matter how powerful, is not good.
I agree that there are morally complicated issues in life. This is why in my last post I wrote “In general…” I was referring to the common experience of life. The fact that there are extreme and unusual circumstances – circumstances that never occur in a most people’s real lives – does not invalidate the fact that in general good and evil are obvious.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:00 pm For example, if a Nazi is standing before you starving, and you have a piece of bread, eat it all, don't split it with him, be selfish, because he is evil.
If “God” told me to kill my child then I could know that the speaker was not God. The Bible teaches obedience to God because God is good. Yes, there was the one event with Abraham, but that was a once-in-history event that cannot rightly be separated from its context about God’s promise and who Isaac was in that promise.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:00 pm If God tells you, kill your own child, you trust God and do it. He might stop you, but if he doesn't, all you can know is that it was right. The Bible teaches that God is good but it also teaches obedience to God. I sort of feel like not being willing to do it would have been the right answer if we weren't in the evil one's universe. However, I acknowledge that you can't confine yourself to first-order thinking, whether there's God or not. Being kind and loving when there is evil is not the way to go, though I admit I once thought it was. I thought I had it right. I had to be humbled and put in my place.
I will add that you say you had to be humbled away from first-order ethics. For me, humility came from the other direction. When I was faced with genuine cruelty and genuine compassion then for me second-order ethics ceased to be serious discussion of morality. It became at best empty pontification from an ivory tower. At worst, and probably more accurately, it was reduced to the whining of children who did not want act morally when doing so was difficult or risky.
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Re: Could You be Tricked into Worshiping Lucifer?
Post #9That's fair. What I think we agree on is that if there are two people, the first one beating on the other and saying that the second fellow is evil, you can't trust the first guy and you have to default to the obvious good of kindness and empathy, at least until you see the second person do some evil yourself. Perhaps you can remain neutral but if the first fellow gives you a large cudgel and tells you to start beating the second, you can't do it at this point.
I think it does for the reason that the "I have more information" is so commonplace. The "but, he's evil" is also everyday, and sometimes he really is evil. There is not one moral proposition that you can hold onto if someone with more information says you're wrong. It just comes down to whether or not you trust him.
It doesn't need to be separated from any context. If the right choice even can be to be willing to kill your child on God's say-so, then God demands trust in his greater information over your first-order ethics and your obvious good.bjs1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:32 pmIf “God” told me to kill my child then I could know that the speaker was not God. The Bible teaches obedience to God because God is good. Yes, there was the one event with Abraham, but that was a once-in-history event that cannot rightly be separated from its context about God’s promise and who Isaac was in that promise.
What do you think would have happened, had Abraham shook his head, and said, no, a good and loving God would not do that?
This isn't unique to religion. This is not some jab at religion. This is just life. The mentally handicapped must trust that everyone else just knows best. You don't get to rush into a prison and free all the prisoners because you personally don't know they did anything; you must trust that the justice system knows best. As a psychopath, I must trust the functioning ventromedial prefrontal cortexes of those who've got them, and accept that if everyone around me says my moral proposition is wrong and disgusting, then it just is, even if they can't explain why. It's just the same as the blind man, who must trust the sighted that a tree is green and the sky is blue. He cannot object.
This is where it does become a jab at religion, because if God wants us to be moral, then he can't create us with deficits of information and throw people in front of us who we must simply trust, when many of them are actually lying. Yes, even if one of those people is God himself.
That ivory tower is where I long to be. That's what I'm aiming for: The highest morality.bjs1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:32 pmI will add that you say you had to be humbled away from first-order ethics. For me, humility came from the other direction. When I was faced with genuine cruelty and genuine compassion then for me second-order ethics ceased to be serious discussion of morality. It became at best empty pontification from an ivory tower. At worst, and probably more accurately, it was reduced to the whining of children who did not want act morally when doing so was difficult or risky.
It definitely isn't treating everyone nicely even if they believe awful things. I tried that. I thought it was clever. I got beat up a lot in school and I was taught tolerance, no matter what. Don't hit, no matter what. Be nice to others, no matter what. This was after beatings so bad I suffered broken bones. Don't hit back, otherwise you are in the wrong. That's what they said. I thought I was being cute when I brought home a neo-Nazi. He was the only one who would be my friend. I told my parents, but, you have to be nice to him, no matter what, that's what you said. I won't get to the top of that ivory tower trying to be clever and point out the inconsistencies of others. If I'm going to get to the point where I'm telling others what to do, instead of others telling me what to do, I have to think in a morally correct way.