CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

[Avoice]

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?

1) I hear Christians say they are not under the law. That it is done away with. Is that true?

The sacrificial system is in the book of the laws.
What makes you think you have protection under the law? Laws which you deny? YOU HAVE NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. You cant offer Jesus or anything as a sacrifice.

2) Did you read about what God demands for a sacrifice to be accepted?

Any if Jesus' blood sprinkled on the alter? NO
You think a sacrifice in a disgusting place like Golgotha is fitting for God? You wouldnt let your dog sleep in such a place. But for an offering to God you are cool with it. Yes? Thats okay?

DOES THE LAW STAND OR DOESN'T IT?

[bjs1]

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?

1) I hear Christians say they are not under the law. That it is done away with. Is that true?

The sacrificial system is in the book of the laws.
What makes you think you have protection under the law? Laws which you deny? YOU HAVE NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. You cant offer Jesus or anything as a sacrifice.

It is common theme in the NT that Christians are not under the law. This is not the same as the law being done away with, but it does mean, as Romans 6:14 says, “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”

2) Did you read about what God demands for a sacrifice to be accepted?

Any if Jesus' blood sprinkled on the alter? NO
You think a sacrifice in a disgusting place like Golgotha is fitting for God? You wouldnt let your dog sleep in such a place. But for an offering to God you are cool with it. Yes? Thats okay?

That would be the point. Golgotha was not fit for a dog, but God went there willingly to set us free from the law and place us under grace. Golgotha has become our alter, because the curtain has been torn and the God of the universe is not contained by location or structure. Now that we are free from the law we live as slaves to righteousness in Jesus Christ.

[1213]

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?
...
DOES THE LAW STAND OR DOESN'T IT?

Law is still valid, it tells correctly what is good and right, but Christians are not under it, because they don't follow it against their will, because they have to, they obey God's law because it is good and they love God.

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

[benchwarmer]

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?
...
DOES THE LAW STAND OR DOESN'T IT?

Law is still valid, it tells correctly what is good and right, but Christians are not under it, because they don't follow it against their will, because they have to, they obey God's law because it is good and they love God.

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

That first sentence make no sense to me. It sounds like you agree, but disagree.

Anyway, the Bible verses you quote clearly mean the law still stands. Arguing whether you are 'under' it is just semantics. You either follow it or you don't. You either break it or you don't.

The Christians who claim that the Old Testament laws no longer apply to them clearly don't read Matthew 5:17 very clearly. Unless everyone who can be saved is saved ('all things accomplished') and the earth disappears (looking at it right now) the law remains according to the author of Matthew who is apparently quoting Jesus.

I call it the 'pick and choose' or 'buffet' style of deciding what laws actually apply to Christians. Every Christian seems to have a different menu and many of them don't seem to read the gospels very closely.

[Miles]

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?
...
DOES THE LAW STAND OR DOESN'T IT?

Law is still valid, it tells correctly what is good and right, but Christians are not under it, because they don't follow it against their will, because they have to, they obey God's law because it is good and they love God.

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

That first sentence make no sense to me. It sounds like you agree, but disagree.

It doesn't make sense, but it does sound like a game of Let's Pretend It Doesn't Say What It Says.

Mat. 5:17-19 in plain text.

17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.
19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom.

AND

1 John 5:3 likewise in plain text.

3 Loving God means obeying his commands. And God’s commands are not too hard for us,

So god's laws are still in effect, and because nowhere does the Bible say or imply "Christians are not under them, because they don't follow it against their will, because they have to" the good Christian is still under them. So stop bakin' that ham and start burin' your 1970s polyester-cotton bell bottoms. Sinner!


.

[1213]

...
Anyway, the Bible verses you quote clearly mean the law still stands. Arguing whether you are 'under' it is just semantics. You either follow it or you don't. You either break it or you don't...

So, you think being under the law means only that law is valid? Why do you think that is what the Bible means?

I think it would good to understand that even though the law is valid, it is not the condition for salvation. Before Jesus many people obeyed it, because they tried to earn something by doing so and also because they had to. After Jesus came, the God's law is "written in persons heart" so that person voluntarily wants to obey it, because he knows it is good. then person is really not under the law, the law is not ruling, because keeping it is not anymore based on force/compulsion.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

[Miles]

...
Anyway, the Bible verses you quote clearly mean the law still stands. Arguing whether you are 'under' it is just semantics. You either follow it or you don't. You either break it or you don't...

So, you think being under the law means only that law is valid? Why do you think that is what the Bible means?

I think it would good to understand that even though the law is valid, it is not the condition for salvation.

At the very least it puts one in better favor with god, because as Matthew 5:19 points out, "Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom." So unless a person likes polishing heaven's streets paved with gold forever, one best be on their best behavior.



.

[benchwarmer]

...
Anyway, the Bible verses you quote clearly mean the law still stands. Arguing whether you are 'under' it is just semantics. You either follow it or you don't. You either break it or you don't...

So, you think being under the law means only that law is valid? Why do you think that is what the Bible means?

I'm not sure i understand your question. Where did I say it means "only that law is valid".

My point is that the law is either what God has set out as correct behavior under penalty of punishment (that is what a law is after all) or it is just some nice suggestions and aren't really 'law'.

You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too. You recognize the law is given by God, but somehow don't see it as actual law that you must follow. If humans don't have to follow the law, it's not law. It's suggestions, recommendations, or some other form of written commentary. I don't know about you, but I see the word 'law' pretty clearly in the Bible and in Jesus's supposed words. If you want to ignore that, that's your choice. I'm an atheist so don't care, but when Jesus is claimed to have said the law still stands, that seems pretty hard to wiggle out of if you are a follower of Jesus. Happy wiggling

[tam]

Peace to you,

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?

1) I hear Christians say they are not under the law. That it is done away with. Is that true?

Copied from another similar question on another thread:

I am not under the law of the old covenant, no. That covenant (and its law) was only between Israel and God, and it was mediated by Moses.

A person cannot be held to the terms of a contract (which is what a covenant is) if they were never part of that contract.

I am in the new covenant, mediated by Christ. The law of the new covenant that is written upon the heart is love.


and,

In the new covenant we are under Christ, under grace (undeserved though it is), and the law (of that covenant) that is written upon the heart is love (just as it would have been upon Abraham's heart, long before there was ever a written law that Israel needed due to hard-heartedness).

viewtopic.php?p=987623#p987623



**

As for the 'jot and tittle' quote that some are bringing up (again from that other thread):

Christ does not just say that not one bit of the law will pass away; He said that not one bit will pass away UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED.


Well, all was fulfilled in Christ. This is what He said He came to do (to fulfill); He already did it; it is finished.

See also from Luke:

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

And also from John,

"After this, [Jesus] knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst...

"When he had received the drink, He said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

**

The sacrificial system is in the book of the laws.
What makes you think you have protection under the law?

I don't think I have protection under the law. I have protection under Christ.

Laws which you deny? YOU HAVE NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. You cant offer Jesus or anything as a sacrifice.

No need (or even request) for me to offer a sacrifice; Christ offered Himself as the sacrifice, once and for all.

2) Did you read about what God demands for a sacrifice to be accepted?

Any if Jesus' blood sprinkled on the alter? NO

Yes, He offered His blood at the true altar; the spiritual altar.

The physical things were just physical representations of the spiritual realities, to help people get a sense of the spiritual reality. So that the Most Holy Place (in the Temple) is a representation of the Most Holy One... and the Holy Place (through which one needed to pass in order to enter into the Most Holy) is a representation of the Holy One (Christ Jaheshua, through whom one must pass if one wishes to come before the Most Holy One. "No one comes to the Father except through me.")



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[1213]

...You recognize the law is given by God, but somehow don't see it as actual law that you must follow....

My point is not to say people must not follow the law. What I try to say is that I understand that “being under the law” means that person obeys the law because he must do so, not because he wants to do so. And I have understood Christian doesn’t obey it because he has to, but because he wants to obey it. When one does it willingly, not because of force, he is not “under the law”. But, this is just how I understand it. If you don’t like it, you can ignore it.