Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Eloi
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Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?

Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human. These quotes from the book of John are some examples:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #11

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:47 am
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:03 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:52 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

The scriptures certainly do teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven.
Does it say anything about his purpose back then? Or, for that matter, the purpose of the holy spirit?


.
Jesus' purpose was to have a close relationship with our Creator, Jehovah, and to learn all the things that Jehovah wanted to teach His Son. Jesus, the only archangel, worked with his Father and formed the whole universe with Him. This took many billions of years, I'm sure. So he was busy in his pre-earth existence.
And you know all this to be a fact because _______________________________________________________________________ .

Jesus, the only archangel . . . .
Err, Michael and Gabriel are also recognized as archangels in Judaism, Islam, and by most Christians, with Raphael also recognized as an archangel in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Moreover, some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven Archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source.
source: Wikipedia

The Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah's expression of power with which He accomplishes whatever He wishes to do.
So the trinity as shown in the diagram below would be incorrect; the Holy Spirit is not god. Interesting.

.......................................... Image


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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #12

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:39 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:56 am Jesus being the Word meant that he was always Jehovah's spokesman.
So Jesus was a man in the beginning, and is a man at present, in the Kingdom of God?
No, Jesus was not a man in the beginning of his life. He was a mighty spirit person in heaven with God. He was born on Earth as a man, and when he was resurrected after his death he went back to the spirit realm and ascended to heaven as a spirit, just as God is (John 4:24; I Timothy 6:16).

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #13

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:47 am
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:03 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:52 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

The scriptures certainly do teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven.
Does it say anything about his purpose back then? Or, for that matter, the purpose of the holy spirit?


.
Jesus' purpose was to have a close relationship with our Creator, Jehovah, and to learn all the things that Jehovah wanted to teach His Son. Jesus, the only archangel, worked with his Father and formed the whole universe with Him. This took many billions of years, I'm sure. So he was busy in his pre-earth existence.
And you know all this to be a fact because _______________________________________________________________________ .

Jesus, the only archangel . . . .
Err, Michael and Gabriel are also recognized as archangels in Judaism, Islam, and by most Christians, with Raphael also recognized as an archangel in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Moreover, some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven Archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source.
source: Wikipedia

The Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah's expression of power with which He accomplishes whatever He wishes to do.
So the trinity as shown in the diagram below would be incorrect; the Holy Spirit is not god. Interesting.

.......................................... Image


.
The scriptures show that Jesus, before he became "Jesus," worked with his Father, God, to create everything in the universe (I Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16,17; John 1:3).

Check it out for yourself by reading the Bible. You will see that there is only ONE Archangel, and that is Jesus before he took on the name "Jesus." No other angel is named as an archangel, no matter what religious tradition says. (Michael is the name Jesus had in heaven before he came to the earth and Joseph and Mary named him Jesus. Luke 1:31.)

You are correct---the Holy Spirit is not God. It is God's conduit of the power that he uses to accomplish something.


Don't take my word for it or what other religions say. Search out the truth for yourself.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #14

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:20 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:47 am
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:03 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:52 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

The scriptures certainly do teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven.
Does it say anything about his purpose back then? Or, for that matter, the purpose of the holy spirit?


.
Jesus' purpose was to have a close relationship with our Creator, Jehovah, and to learn all the things that Jehovah wanted to teach His Son. Jesus, the only archangel, worked with his Father and formed the whole universe with Him. This took many billions of years, I'm sure. So he was busy in his pre-earth existence.
And you know all this to be a fact because _______________________________________________________________________ .

Jesus, the only archangel . . . .
Err, Michael and Gabriel are also recognized as archangels in Judaism, Islam, and by most Christians, with Raphael also recognized as an archangel in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Moreover, some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven Archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source.
source: Wikipedia

The Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah's expression of power with which He accomplishes whatever He wishes to do.
So the trinity as shown in the diagram below would be incorrect; the Holy Spirit is not god. Interesting.



.
Check it out for yourself by reading the Bible. You will see that there is only ONE Archangel, and that is Jesus before he took on the name "Jesus."
Where? Where in the bible does it say there is only one archangel, and that it's Jesus?

No other angel is named as an archangel, no matter what religious tradition says.
Well Jude 1:9 does mention the archangel Michael, but I find no reference to he and Jesus being one and the same entity.

(Michael is the name Jesus had in heaven before he came to the earth and Joseph and Mary named him Jesus. Luke 1:31.)
Luke 1:31 says no such thing; that Michael is the name Jesus had in heaven. What version of the Bible are you using?


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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #15

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:39 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:56 am Jesus being the Word meant that he was always Jehovah's spokesman.
So Jesus was a man in the beginning, and is a man at present, in the Kingdom of God?
No, Jesus was not a man in the beginning of his life. He was a mighty spirit person in heaven with God.
No, that was the Word.
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pmHe was born on Earth as a man,
Yes, that was when the Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ. Jesus had a physical birth into a human world.
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pm. . . and when he was resurrected after his death he went back to the spirit realm and ascended to heaven as a spirit, just as God is (John 4:24; I Timothy 6:16).
That's the Word again.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #16

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:00 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:20 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:47 am
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:03 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:52 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

The scriptures certainly do teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven.
Does it say anything about his purpose back then? Or, for that matter, the purpose of the holy spirit?


.
Jesus' purpose was to have a close relationship with our Creator, Jehovah, and to learn all the things that Jehovah wanted to teach His Son. Jesus, the only archangel, worked with his Father and formed the whole universe with Him. This took many billions of years, I'm sure. So he was busy in his pre-earth existence.
And you know all this to be a fact because _______________________________________________________________________ .

Jesus, the only archangel . . . .
Err, Michael and Gabriel are also recognized as archangels in Judaism, Islam, and by most Christians, with Raphael also recognized as an archangel in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Moreover, some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven Archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source.
source: Wikipedia

The Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah's expression of power with which He accomplishes whatever He wishes to do.
So the trinity as shown in the diagram below would be incorrect; the Holy Spirit is not god. Interesting.



.
Check it out for yourself by reading the Bible. You will see that there is only ONE Archangel, and that is Jesus before he took on the name "Jesus."
Where? Where in the bible does it say there is only one archangel, and that it's Jesus?

No other angel is named as an archangel, no matter what religious tradition says.
Well Jude 1:9 does mention the archangel Michael, but I find no reference to he and Jesus being one and the same entity.

(Michael is the name Jesus had in heaven before he came to the earth and Joseph and Mary named him Jesus. Luke 1:31.)
Luke 1:31 says no such thing; that Michael is the name Jesus had in heaven. What version of the Bible are you using?


.
Luke 1:31 shows that Mary and Joseph were instructed to name the baby "Jesus." If you will concede that Jesus' life before he came to the earth was in heaven, then don't you think that it is reasonable that he had another name in heaven? He first encountered that name, Jesus, when born onto the earth. What would his name have been in heaven? Him being "Michael" perfectly lines up with that reasoning, and the fact that Daniel 12:1 states that "the great prince" will, during the time of the end, "stand up in behalf of his people." What other being has the authority or position to mediate for God's people---other than the being we know as Jesus? I'm not aware of any other being---whether man or angel---that has that privilege. Jesus and Michael are one and the same.

I'll use any version. I refer to many versions.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #17

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:13 pm
Luke 1:31 shows that Mary and Joseph were instructed to name the baby "Jesus." If you will concede that Jesus' life before he came to the earth was in heaven, then don't you think that it is reasonable that he had another name in heaven?
Perhaps. And perhaps it was "Bruce."

He first encountered that name, Jesus, when born onto the earth. What would his name have been in heaven?
Don't know. Perhaps "Donald"?

Him being "Michael" perfectly lines up with that reasoning, and the fact that Daniel 12:1 states that "the great prince" will, during the time of the end, "stand up in behalf of his people."
In that case Jesus would have to have been an angel (Michael was an angel). Anything in the bible saying Jesus was an angel? Nope. In fact, Hebrews 1:7-8 makes a clear distinction between the two:

Hebrews 1:7-8
7 He said this about the angels, “He makes His angels to be winds. He makes His servants a burning fire.” 8 But about His Son, He says, “O God, Your throne will last forever. Whatever You say in Your nation is right and good.



Moreover, we have this from Don Stewart in the Blue Letter Bible


The Bible contrasts the character of angels and that of the Lord Jesus.

A More Excellent Name

Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels.

having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs (Hebrews 1:4).


There is a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels. The word "name" in this context has to do with character. For example, the angels named in Scripture are Michael "who is like God?" and Gabriel "God is my strength." Yet Jesus has a more excellent name than them in the sense that He is the Lord God Himself.

Christ Superior To Angels


In a long passage (Hebrews 1:5-2:9) the writer emphasizes Christ as superior to the angels in every respect. For a short time, when He became a man,
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. However, He is, in every way, superior to them.

Angels Worshipped Him

Christ was superior to the angels in the fact that they worshipped Him.

And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him" (Hebrews 1:6).

Creator And Created


Thus we see the contrast between the Creator and the created since Scripture teaches that Jesus was the Creator of the angels.

for in Him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers - all things have been created through Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16).

Angels were created above humanity, but they are below Christ - the Creator of all things.

Summary

The Bible does say that Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels. He is distinct from the angels in the fact that He created them. Therefore we have the distinction between the Creator and the created. Consequently Jesus is said to have a more excellent name, or identity, than the angels.
source



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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #18

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were. They all had the same spirit bodies, and they were all perfect. Jesus stood out because he was created first, and the only thing created by Jehovah Himself with no one else involved. Jesus was thus special. He could have been called an angel, but he was superior to them in certain ways. Jehovah called him His Son.....His "only begotten Son." (John 3:16) Therefore he, even though with qualities like the angels, was superior to the other angels and was given a designation as "Archangel."

The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #19

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were. They all had the same spirit bodies, and they were all perfect. Jesus stood out because he was created first, and the only thing created by Jehovah Himself with no one else involved. Jesus was thus special. He could have been called an angel, but he was superior to them in certain ways. Jehovah called him His Son.....His "only begotten Son." (John 3:16) Therefore he, even though with qualities like the angels, was superior to the other angels and was given a designation as "Archangel."

The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
Because other scripture, such as Hebrews 1:6, Hebrews 1:7-8,a nd Hebrews 1:5-2:9, and make a clear distinction between Jesus and angels, which would include any archangel.

No translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 attributes the voice to Jesus. In fact, some make a clear distinction between Jesus and the voice.

CJB
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise;

ICB
The Lord himself will come down from heaven. There will be a loud command with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. And those who have died and were in Christ will rise first.

ISV
With a shout of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of God’s trumpet, the Lord himself will come down from heaven, and the dead who belong to the Messiah will rise first.

PHILLIPS
Now we don’t want you, my brothers, to be in any doubt about those who “fall asleep” in death, or to grieve over them like men who have no hope. After all, if we believe that Jesus died and rose again from death, then we can believe that God will just as surely bring with Jesus all who are “asleep” in him. Here we have a definite message from the Lord. It is that those who are still living when he comes will not in any way precede those who have previously fallen asleep. One word of command, one shout from the archangel, one blast from the trumpet of God and the Lord himself will come down from Heaven! Those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise, and then we who are still living on the earth will be swept up with them into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And after that we shall be with him for ever.

NCB
When the command is given, at the sound of the archangel’s voice and the call of God’s trumpet, the Lord himself will descend from heaven, and those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise.

NLV
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a loud call. The head angel will speak with a loud voice. God’s horn will give its sounds. First, those who belong to Christ will come out of their graves to meet the Lord.




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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #20

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were. They all had the same spirit bodies, and they were all perfect. Jesus stood out because he was created first, and the only thing created by Jehovah Himself with no one else involved. Jesus was thus special. He could have been called an angel, but he was superior to them in certain ways. Jehovah called him His Son.....His "only begotten Son." (John 3:16) Therefore he, even though with qualities like the angels, was superior to the other angels and was given a designation as "Archangel."

The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
The Word is a spirit which was born of the Spirit.

But Jesus was a man born of the flesh.
John 3:6 wrote:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels":
Hebrews 2:9 wrote:But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
That's exactly as man was created:
Psalm 8:4-5 wrote:What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
The Bible confirms that Jesus was a man:
1 Timothy 2:5 wrote:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The Word was not Jesus, and Jesus was not the Word. They are two different type of beings.

Jesus was the Word made flesh:
John 1:14 wrote:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This was the only time a spiritual being was made flesh. How that was accomplished is a mystery to all mankind -- except possibly Jesus.

Jesus had to be a man to become the mediator between God and man. That is, He fell under the Old Testament Covenant between man and God as a possible beneficiary. He became the only beneficiary under that covenant by living a human sinless life. That is, the wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, thus He qualified as an heir to everlasting life under that covenant.

God the Father then allowed Jesus to offer His inheritance to whosoever believeth in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins, under the New Testament Covenant.

This is the mechanism by which God "fixed" the fault in the original covenant:
Hebrews 8:6-7 wrote:But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The Word created the heaven and the earth, so He was made flesh for the purpose of resolving the fault in His original creation.

Having done so, there is no longer any reason for the Word made flesh to exist.

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