Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #61

Post by William »

[Replying to Tcg in post #60]

I think the assumption is that since something is given life, IF for some reason, that life is threatened with death [for rule-breakage in this case] THEN that life must have not been able to die prior to breaking the rule, therefore was eternal...

As far as I can tell, the assumption is valid.

What is unknown, is whether a trick was played upon Adam in that, since there is no mention from the God-being that the man was created immortal, it may be that he wasn't...that he would eventually die anyway.

That way, the God-being could install into the mans program, both the understanding of seeing things as dualities [right/wrong dark/light etc] and a sense of guilt for knowing such knowledge, and from that guilt, a reasonable explanation for why man would eventually die.

One might argue that since the pair were ordered to procreate, that this is a sign they needed to do so in order for their kind [human] to continue existing on the planet, or it could be argued that the idea of procreating was to increase the numbers of immortal humans on the face of the planet in order to better subdue it.

“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

One can ascertain from the imagery that this God-being was into having dominion over that sort of thing.
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #62

Post by myth-one.com »

Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:06 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm
That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.
This doesn't hold up in the case of the "rich young ruler" from Mt. 19, Mk.10, and Lk. 18. This man maintained all the laws of God and yet Jesus demanded more. Jesus required the man to give up his riches and give it to the poor. As far as I know, that is not part of the laws of God.

Tcg
Jesus told the young man that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments. That is the correct answer under the Old Testament Covenant.
Matthew 19:16-17 wrote:And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus continued to state that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Nonetheless, the requirements remain the same for all humans -- keep the commandments.

There is no commandment to be poor.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #63

Post by Tcg »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:06 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm
That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.
This doesn't hold up in the case of the "rich young ruler" from Mt. 19, Mk.10, and Lk. 18. This man maintained all the laws of God and yet Jesus demanded more. Jesus required the man to give up his riches and give it to the poor. As far as I know, that is not part of the laws of God.

Tcg
Jesus told the young man that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments. That is the correct answer under the Old Testament Covenant.
Matthew 19:16-17 wrote:And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus continued to state that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Nonetheless, the requirements remain the same for all humans -- keep the commandments.

There is no commandment to be poor.
You've skipped this part:
Matthew 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Jesus added something beyond the commandments.


Tcg
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #64

Post by William »

Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:31 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:06 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm
That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.
This doesn't hold up in the case of the "rich young ruler" from Mt. 19, Mk.10, and Lk. 18. This man maintained all the laws of God and yet Jesus demanded more. Jesus required the man to give up his riches and give it to the poor. As far as I know, that is not part of the laws of God.

Tcg
Jesus told the young man that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments. That is the correct answer under the Old Testament Covenant.
Matthew 19:16-17 wrote:And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus continued to state that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Nonetheless, the requirements remain the same for all humans -- keep the commandments.

There is no commandment to be poor.
You've skipped this part:
Matthew 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Jesus added something beyond the commandments.


Tcg
Good spotting.

re the Commandments, Jesus also said that they could all be summed up through keeping two of those.


Mathew Gospel
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Basically biblical Jesus snipped the complexity of law down to a few sentences.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #65

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to Tcg in post #63]


There is nothing "beyond the commandments"!


The "rich, young, ruler" had treasure in the human world which competed with his treasure in heaven.

Jesus suggested that he get that treasure off his shoulders.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #66

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:05 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #63]


There is nothing "beyond the commandments"!


The "rich, young, ruler" had treasure in the human world which competed with his treasure in heaven.

Jesus suggested that he get that treasure off his shoulders.
That in itself seems to be an extra rather than a commandment one should keep, because the rich man was looking for something more than money could buy. It wasn't that his riches were preventing him from gaining any treasure in heaven, because he kept the commandments - Jesus was recognizing that the man was wanting something out of his reach and so suggested that the man give it all up and follow Jesus, if he wanted that.

Not choosing to do so, did not mean that he had necessarily lost his access to heaven.

The suggestion was simply made because the man was asking for an answer to his question.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #67

Post by myth-one.com »

Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:48 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:47 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:36 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm
Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.
Are you aware of any passages from the O.T. itself that state this clearly? If so would you mind presenting them?

Tcg
Genesis 2:16-17 wrote:And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God did not suggest or recommend that man not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He commanded it! Since man was not created with the knowledge of good and evil he could not sin until God gave him this first commandment. God gave them the command, and foretold the consequences of disobeying that command.
I don't see any reference to eternal life here. Can you present any passages from the O.T. that do?

Tcg
<======================================================>
Exodus 32:33 wrote:And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Deuteronomy 30:12 wrote:And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 wrote:And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those whose names are written in the book of life will be awakened to everlasting life -- according to the Old Testament.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #68

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #67]

Did biblical Jesus ever mention the book of life, in any of the four gospels?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #69

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:01 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #67]

Did biblical Jesus ever mention the book of life, in any of the four gospels?
Not that I know of.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #70

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:52 pm
William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:01 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #67]

Did biblical Jesus ever mention the book of life, in any of the four gospels?
Not that I know of.
Then it is likely a mythological prop and therefore not important.

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