Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #71

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Of course, Christ does mention names being written in heaven, from the gospels:

"...However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:20


He also references the resurrection that is mentioned in Daniel (which reference in Daniel also mentions the Book of Life):

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28, 29

At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1, 2


And though this is not recorded in one of the gospels, Christ also mentions the book of life in the Revelation given to John:

The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. Rev 3:5

Acknowledging the names of people before His Father is something that Christ mentions in the gospels:

Therefore everyone who acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. Matt 10:32





Peace again to you.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #72

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:52 pm
William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:01 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #67]

Did biblical Jesus ever mention the book of life, in any of the four gospels?
Not that I know of.
Then it is likely a mythological prop and therefore not important.
How did you jump to that conclusion?

Names written in the Book of Life will gain everlasting life. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and permanent death.

I dunno.

It seems s little important.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #73

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #72]
Did biblical Jesus ever mention the book of life, in any of the four gospels?
Not that I know of.
Then The Lambs Book of Life is likely a mythological prop and therefore not important.
How did you jump to that conclusion?
Because Jesus didn't mention it, so it is likely not important in the context that Jesus was focused upon.
Names written in the Book of Life will gain everlasting life.
Nice carrot, but what of it?

Isn't the point biblical Jesus made, to do with how one gets to have their name written in said mythological book?
Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and permanent death.

I dunno.

It seems s little important.
Well it isn't. It is just a mythological prop designed to entice something of the individual which might - but probably won't - lead that individual to actually do stuff which ensures their name is recorded in said device.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #74

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:08 pm
William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:42 am
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:57 pm
William wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:25 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #45]
That's like saying why didn't he tell them about how they should comb their hair or brush their teeth?
So you are arguing that the subject "is Death The End?" is no more important than the subject of 'how hair should be combed" and "how teeth should be brushed"?
No, that's not what I am arguing.
What are yoù arguing
That there are things that don't need to be delineated by Jesus at that time because those things weren't things that needed to be explained at that time. The apostle Paul explained, quite thoroughly, what the facts were about immortality, and Jesus knew he would cover all that at a time that it could be understood more readily.
Considering the subject was spoken of by biblical Jesus, I find the reasoning to be more of an attempt to validate someone who is not Jesus but who claims to speak on behalf of Jesus, "because people will understand Paul better" too weak an argument.

Can you provide anything Jesus said which might validate his inability to tell people about what happens after death?
Jesus had plenty to say about what happens after death. When his friend Lazarus died, he told his disciples that Lazarus had "gone to sleep." His disciples said, well then he'll wake up if he's just asleep. Jesus then clearly said, "He has died." (John 11:11) So, he compared death to being asleep.....the person is conscious of nothing. He is not alive and is therefore truly dead. King Solomon had said, "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) I'm sure Jesus knew that to be true. Comparing death to a deep sleep is how Jesus explains what happens to people when they die. They await the Resurrection, when Jesus will call the dead forth, to stand up again. (John 5:28; John 6:40,44)

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #75

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #74]
Considering the subject was spoken of by biblical Jesus, I find the reasoning to be more of an attempt to validate someone who is not Jesus but who claims to speak on behalf of Jesus, "because people will understand Paul better" too weak an argument.

Can you provide anything Jesus said which might validate his inability to tell people about what happens after death?
Jesus had plenty to say about what happens after death.
Sure.
When his friend Lazarus died, he told his disciples that Lazarus had "gone to sleep." His disciples said, well then he'll wake up if he's just asleep. Jesus then clearly said, "He has died."
Jesus was, of course, attempting to explain to a group of individuals, how death works for the individual.

The way you say it above, it is like he tries to tell them it is really just like going to sleep. You will wake up.
Some seem to have taken it literally, and couldn't join the dots, because they must have known that when people go to sleep, they wake up. When people die however, their bodies rot. Two different things entirely. Jesus would have known that.
(John 11:11) So, he compared death to being asleep.....the person is conscious of nothing.
That is also not entirely true, although for folk who experience sleep in this way, they would naturally think of it in those terms. Hench the difficulty Jesus had in explaining what happens to the person after their body has died.

But anyhow - what he did next was possibly prompted in part by this inability to explain death to those present who only believed that they rotted in the ground.

Meanwhile Jesus is concerned with the focus on the person rather than the body the personality was formed within.

Tears were shed. Compassion shown to those who were still alive and missed the Lazarus personality.

It was of course, the body that Jesus restored from its condition of initial decay. Lazarus re-entered the body, because he could now do so.

But folk who do see themselves in that light, do not appear to be able to accept that this is what occurred.

What happened to Lazarus, I wonder. Is there any information regarding that? Perhaps Jesus eventually fetched him and together they ascended into the clouds, with no one to witness the event? Or perhaps Lazarus lives on, even to this day, as primed and energetic as he was 20-odd centuries ago.

One thing we can take from this story, is that Jesus' resurrection was not the first resurrection to happen.

Lazarus seems to be an example of sorts as to answering the question "Is death ... the end?"


The 'sleep' bit is merely an attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

It - of itself - is explaining that as far as the individual will experience it, the transition is instantaneous just as waking is from sleeping...how much 'time out' occurred between events is not what the end is.

Therefore, all said an done, Death is not "The End."

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #76

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:00 pm Therefore, all said an done, Death is not "The End."

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?
Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.
-- Random House College Dictionary

<===============================>

The Bible discusses two "deaths", the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:
Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:
[Revelation 21:8 wrote:But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all as it does not meet the definition of death -- as it is not final. While all will "die" their first death, likewise, all will be resurrected or awakened from their first death:
[I Corinthians 15:22-23 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Since everyone will live again after their "first death," the first death is not actually a death at all since it is nor permanent.

So Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only "sleeping".

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:
John 11:14 wrote:Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view, and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective, there is one true death, the second death.

And yes, the second death is the end of life eternally for that being. There is no "spirit" or "soul" which lives on after the second death. There is no awaking again after the second death. They are dead and gone forever. There is no memory of them.

Therefore, all said an done, the Second Death is "The End."

<===============================>

Spiritual beings live forever, and natural beings all die. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So the path to everlasting life for natural bodied beings should be SO OBVIOUS!!

Kindergarten students should be able to figure this one out!

You must be born again of the Spirit!

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #77

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #76]
The 'sleep' bit is merely an attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

It - of itself - is explaining that as far as the individual will experience it, the transition is instantaneous just as waking is from sleeping...how much 'time out' occurred between events is not what the end is.

Therefore, all said an done, Death is not "The End."

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?
John 11:14 wrote:
Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie.
Jesus and the disciples were told that Lazarus [body] was sick and dying. Jesus didn't immediately go to Judaea but waited for two days before departing.
Apparently some religious fanatics had sought to stone him to death the last time he was in Judaea, so the disciples were concerned with his decision to go there.

John then has Jesus saying something about the difference in walking in the daylight compared to walking at night, which appears to be a mystical answer to their concerns.

After that Jesus tells them that their friend Lazarus is sleeping and Jesus is willing to risk going back to Judaea in order to wake him from that sleep.

The reader can ascertain from this, that Jesus was using the word sleep instead of the word dead, because Jesus did not see death as anything more or different than sleep. This is because Jesus is a mystic and understands that death is an illusion.

However his disciples did not understand it in the same way that Jesus did, so he simply told them that Lazarus was dead, using terminology they could relate to, but that he was going to go to Judaea to show them that death was not the end.

Then John writes a strange thing he attributes to being said by Thomas - "let us go there so that we might die with Lazarus". [?]

As the story goes, by the time the troupe arrived in Judaea, Lazarus body was already dead and in the grave, and had been for four days.

Martha hears that Jesus has come to Judaea and goes out to meet with him and tells him that she knows that had Jesus been there before Lazarus had succumbed to his sickness, that her brother would not have died...and adds "But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

And Jesus answered Martha. telling her that her brother will rise again.

Martha responds by saying that she knows her brother will rise again "in the resurrection at the last day"

[ - doing a quick search on this, I find no reference to OT beliefs regarding this, so for now will assume that this was an in-house belief that the extended family had, which was not something that the major branches of Judaism taught. I am certainly open to being directed to information which might show me differently...]

Jesus then takes the opportunity to state that he is the resurrection, and the life and that those who believe in him, even if they were dead, they will still live [be alive] because those who believe in him shall never die.

That is what Jesus says about death. That it is not the end of a persons experience of being alive...Obviously their bodies die, so this means that Jesus sees Humans as Spirits within forms, which is different to how humans general see humans.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #78

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:38 pm That is what Jesus says about death. That it is not the end of a persons experience of being alive...Obviously their bodies die, so this means that Jesus sees Humans as Spirits within forms, which is different to how humans general see humans.
So Lazarus is still alive?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #79

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:36 pm
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:38 pm That is what Jesus says about death. That it is not the end of a persons experience of being alive...Obviously their bodies die, so this means that Jesus sees Humans as Spirits within forms, which is different to how humans general see humans.
So Lazarus is still alive?
Do you mean the personality which occupied the body, or the body, or both, when referring to Lazarus re your question?

There is no mention of Lazarus' body dying, once it was resurrected from death/decay, so one could assume that if he is no longer on this planet, he may have ascended, in the same manner Jesus did.

The composite personality as a unique subjective experience, which is "Lazarus" never died.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #80

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:47 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:36 pm
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:38 pm That is what Jesus says about death. That it is not the end of a persons experience of being alive...Obviously their bodies die, so this means that Jesus sees Humans as Spirits within forms, which is different to how humans general see humans.
So Lazarus is still alive?
Do you mean the personality which occupied the body, or the body, or both, when referring to Lazarus re your question?
I mean the man Lazarus mentioned in John chapter 11.
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:47 pm There is no mention of Lazarus' body dying, . . .
Here's one:
John 11:14 wrote:Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:47 pm The composite personality as a unique subjective experience, which is "Lazarus" never died.
There are two type of bodies according to the Bible:
I Corinthians 15:44 wrote:There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And they come in an orderly fashion, not mixed together!

The natural body comes first and is then followed by the spiritual body:
I Corinthians 15:46 wrote:Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The biblical order is natural and then spiritual.

There is no spiritual body living within a physical body form!

Your "Humans as Spirits within forms" is your creation.

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