What Jesus Said

[William]

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

[tam]

Peace to you all,

If anyone is uncertain if Christ referred to God (JAH) as His Father or not, perhaps the following will help:

Christ quoting from Isaiah 61, here in Luke 4:16-21:

**
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”


Here is the Isaiah quote:

The Spirit of the [Lord GOD] is on Me, because [the LORD] has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners, 2to proclaim the year of [the LORD’s] favor.


[The LORD] in Isaiah is there in place of "YHWH".

Therefore, it is "YHWH" who anointed and sent Christ.

**

In Matthew 22:42-45, Christ also quotes from Psalm 110:1,

[The LORD] says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Christ is the one being referred to as 'my lord', where of course '[the LORD]', again, is YHWH.


**

And of course in John 8, speaking to the Jews, Christ directly states:

“If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him."

The Jews claimed "YHWH" as their God. They (the ones to whom Christ was speaking) did not know Him, but He (YHWH) is the God and Father of Christ. The same One who sent His Son (Christ), and said to Christ, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Just as He said about Christ, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."



**

Of course Christ spoke more than just quoting from the OT. He did, however, say that the scriptures testify to Him (John 5:39; Luke 24:27), and that everything written about Him in the scriptures must be fulfilled (Luke 24:44).



As for the Word of God (the God who is the God and Father of Christ)... that Word is Christ. Just as Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Resurrection, the Light.





Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #61]

Thanks for that lesson Tam.

I think folk forget that patterns don't just stop because someone declares something.

20 centuries and counting, we still see no sign of activity from, either YHWH or His Son, but it is a pattern followed nonetheless.

What we do see are remnants of a destroyed temple. What we do hear are claims of a resurrection and of a return of Jesus once The Father gives him the okay to come on down and sort us lot out.

What we also see is the possibility that The Father has changed his mind on that, because Christians failed to complete the task The Son set for them, which was to build the Kingdom of God over the face of the planet.

Somehow that message Jesus gave, has been placed to one side, while a more popular message has taken its place, where Jesus will do the building of said Kingdom, once he returns to do so.

So the same can be said for Christianity, that Jesus said re Judaism. "Your Priests have fed you a lie about God, and you have believed it to be the truth"

I think it safe to say that Humans will continue grow toward the fulfilling the purpose The Creator intended them to...as the lie is left behind.

I do not see any sense in Jesus being sent back now. The Father has tolerated the unfolding human drama up until now, without any known/obvious intervention.

Let humans sort themselves out.

[tam]

Peace again to you all,

[Replying to tam in post #61]

Thanks for that lesson Tam.

I'm not a teacher, William. I'm just sharing those things that the actual Teacher referred to Himself, especially considering the topic of this thread.

I think folk forget that patterns don't just stop because someone declares something.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

20 centuries and counting, we still see no sign of activity from, either YHWH or His Son, but it is a pattern followed nonetheless.

If by "activity", you mean that Christ has not yet returned, He did suggest that He could be a long time coming (Matt 24:48, 49), and that only the Father knew the day and hour (Matt 24:36). He also stated that He WOULD return, and so He will.


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. - Matthew 25:31-34 (and it continues)

Note that He says above WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory... not IF the Son of Man comes in His glory. It WILL happen. Therefore, the Father does not change His mind.

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt 24:27

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24:30, 31

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Matt 24:44

What we do see are remnants of a destroyed temple. What we do hear are claims of a resurrection and of a return of Jesus once The Father gives him the okay to come on down and sort us lot out.

The "claim" of the resurrection and His return are according to Christ's own words.

What we also see is the possibility that The Father has changed his mind on that...

If we hold that claim up to Christ and His words, it does not stand. In the above quotes Christ said WHEN the Son of Man comes. Not IF the Son of Man comes. He also said that He would return, and so He will. According to the time that the Father has set (Acts 1:6-8).

, because Christians failed to complete the task The Son set for them, which was to build the Kingdom of God over the face of the planet[/b].

Can you please provide the statements from Christ where He tells Christians to build the Kingdom of God over the face of the planet? And also the statement from Christ where He said His return would potentially hinge upon them doing that?

Somehow that message Jesus gave, has been placed to one side, while a more popular message has taken its place, where Jesus will do the building of said Kingdom, once he returns to do so.

I'm not sure what other people claim, but Christ ESTABLISHES the Kingdom upon the earth. The Kingdom is within some people now, even before He returns (He - the King - is in them; Him in us and us in Him; and so also the Father), but that Kingdom and reign will be established upon the earth when Christ returns. At that time, as He has said, the nations will be gathered before Him; some will be invited into said Kingdom and others sent into the outer darkness. (sheep and the goats parable)


As to the rest of your post,

The Father does not leave humans to sort themselves out. His promise - that Christ gave us - shows that He does intervene, for the sake of the elect (or no flesh would be saved).

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." Matt 24:22



Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #63]

Note that He says above WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory... not IF the Son of Man comes in His glory. It WILL happen. Therefore, the Father does not change His mind.

I see it this way Tam;

Jesus was on a mission which involved the purpose of setting up a representation of The Father's Kingdom over the face of this Planet, Earth.

He left that task to Human Beings, as per The Father's instructions.

If we are to agree that Jesus knew all along that leaving the task to Human Beings would not produce setting up a representation of The Father's Kingdom over the face of this Planet, Earth, why did he go away?

Was it because The Father was trying to show him something about Human Beings being useless for such a task set?
Yet clearly we have evidence of Jesus' faith in Human Beings being able to achieve such a thing, if only they did what he asked them to do, which he must have been sure would be what would happen...only...

We get these passages which tell us that no, he knew all along that Human Beings would never be able to achieve that, and he would eventually have to come back and do it himself.

But why go away at all, if that were the case?

Perhaps the only coherent answer is that The Father knew, and The Son also knew, but Human Beings didn't know that about themselves.

And so the whole thing is some sort of lesson to teach future human beings that past Human Beings didn't have what it takes, and future human beings will forever be cursed with the knowledge that they were not able to achieve such a thing as building The Fathers Kingdom over the Face of The Earth, and required being saved by someone who could.

But - of course - re that, The Father has to permit The Son to undertake that visible role.

Meantime, perhaps secretly Jesus is somewhere on Earth pulling levelers and flicking switches behind the scenes...perhaps hoping to make it possibly for Humans to think that they made it happen while all the while it was him secretly doing so...but that would also mean that a type of co-creation between Christ and Humans was occurring.

And there seems to me to be no reason why The Father would not give the nod to such an undertaking.





Wishful Thinking?

[tam]

Peace again,

[Replying to tam in post #63]

Note that He says above WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory... not IF the Son of Man comes in His glory. It WILL happen. Therefore, the Father does not change His mind.

I see it this way Tam;

William... it doesn't matter how you see it. It doesn't matter how I see it. It doesn't matter how jws see it. It doesn't matter how catholics see it.

It matters what CHRIST said.

Is that not the title of this thread (even though you are using the name "Jesus", that is still the gist of your OP, correct?)

Jesus was on a mission which involved the purpose of setting up a representation of The Father's Kingdom over the face of this Planet, Earth.

In my previous post, I asked you to support your claims with the words of Christ. I do not see that you did that in those previous claims, nor for this claim.

He left that task to Human Beings, as per The Father's instructions.

Please quote those instructions.

If we are to agree that Jesus knew all along that leaving the task to Human Beings would not produce setting up a representation of The Father's Kingdom over the face of this Planet, Earth, why did he go away?

You have yet to establish that this task was left to human beings to begin with. So I repeat the questions I asked in my previous post, which seem fair considering the topic of the OP and the rule of thumb that you created:

Can you please provide the statements from Christ where He tells Christians to build the Kingdom of God over the face of the planet? And also the statement from Christ where He said His return would potentially hinge upon them doing that?

Was it because The Father was trying to show him something about Human Beings being useless for such a task set?
Yet clearly we have evidence of Jesus' faith in Human Beings being able to achieve such a thing, if only they did what he asked them to do, which he must have been sure would be what would happen...only...

Please provide that evidence.

We get these passages which tell us that no, he knew all along that Human Beings would never be able to achieve that, and he would eventually have to come back and do it himself.

Perhaps then you should consider that the things you are claiming about Christ are not consistent with what He claimed about Himself or what He did or what He promised.

But why go away at all, if that were the case?

He answered that question.

To prepare a place for us in the Father's house John 14:2; to send holy spirit/the water of LIFE (poured out from the Son, given to Him without end from His Father) John 16:7; to continue to call His sheep, to train us and teach us and lead us into all truth John 10:16; John 16; to continue to build up the Temple that is His body; to go to the Father John 7:33; 14:28.


Plus it was not yet the appointed time (Acts 1:7). Many things had to happen first (such as some of those things listed in Matt 24). Not everyone had yet been born, who would be called and chosen.

There is more in Revelation (that is consistent with what Christ said above).

Perhaps the only coherent answer is that The Father knew, and The Son also knew, but Human Beings didn't know that about themselves.

And so the whole thing is some sort of lesson to teach future human beings that past Human Beings didn't have what it takes, and future human beings will forever be cursed with the knowledge that they were not able to achieve such a thing as building The Fathers Kingdom over the Face of The Earth, and required being saved by someone who could.

But - of course - re that, The Father has to permit The Son to undertake that visible role.

It may be that humans did not know that about themselves, but that is not something that Christ said humans could do, or that this world would accomplish. In fact, He said that great tribulations were coming (that those days needed to be cut short for the sake of the elect), that the world would hate His disciples (as the world hated Him), that His disciples would be persecuted and hated on account of His name. That if people rejected Him, they would also reject those He sent.

Meantime, perhaps secretly Jesus is somewhere on Earth pulling levelers and flicking switches behind the scenes...perhaps hoping to make it possibly for Humans to think that they made it happen while all the while it was him secretly doing so...but that would also mean that a type of co-creation between Christ and Humans was occurring.

Is that something He said He was going to do, William? Doesn't that also include an element of deception? Christ spoke the truth. He didn't tickle ears. He did not deceive.





Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #65]

It matters what CHRIST said.

Tam. As far as I understand what you mean by that, is "what matters" is what biblical Jesus is recorded as having said.

That is in line with the thread title, yes.

William... it doesn't matter how you see it.

If it didn't matter to me, I wouldn't be here interreacting with others Tam.

It doesn't matter how I see it.

I do however respect that you tells us all how you chose to see it anyway.

It doesn't matter how jws see it. It doesn't matter how catholics see it.

etc/et al

It is from that, where each of us - you me and any other member of this Message Board - think about what it is which that is recorded for us to then have the opportunity to banter. You stating it doesn't matter what we think without any supporting reason, is besides the point.
As you wrote, it does not matter what you think, but that is the standard you place upon yourself. You are not free to place those standards on the rest of we players.

In my previous post, I asked you to support your claims with the words of Christ. I do not see that you did that in those previous claims, nor for this claim.

I see you are still under the somewhat naïve impression that Christ = "the individual person you have many names for including ...your "Lord Shepherd - Jah-Is-Salvation".

The Christ is not an individual person...rather It is a Spirit Personality... a gathered force of Like-Minded persona.
Your image of The Christ is pretty much the same one as the Catholics and the JayDubs and most ever other personality calling themselves "Christians" share.

Does it matter that they think of The Christ in this manner? If it wasn't for the obvious worship of this image, I would answer "no".
______________________________________
I explained how I think it goes, and if you have no serious argument against that explanation, then I win. Another victory to Team - William.

Otherwise, please continue with the battle...

Q: If we are to agree that Jesus knew all along that leaving the task to Human Beings would not produce setting up a representation of The Father's Kingdom over the face of this Planet, Earth, why did he go away?

Do you agree that Jesus knew?

A Christian demanding I support my statements with biblical quotes, is something I find humorous.
Rather, I assume any Christian participating on a Warfare Platform such as this debating site, would be prepared enough for battle, by knowing already what it is Jesus did and didn't say.
So in that, if you have any Jesus-quotes which show the reader categorically that Jesus' Mission wasn't to set up his Father Kingdom over the face of the Earth, using humans as the means in which to achieve this, we are all eyes and ears.

Meantime, I will go with the idea that usually the way The Universe deals with species [or parts thereof] who can't save themselves, is to allow them right of passage to create their own demise.

Interfering with that process in order to be seen and worshipped as an object of "salvation from god" - while plausible - is not without its eventual blow-backs.

Another clue as to The Father not giving the order, is that it would interfere with that more-natural outcome and his apparent distain for images [Jesus/the Bible] worshipped as if they were representing Him [if we accept that the OT YHWH is The Father in this story] ...

...within-mind the general Christian claim that YHWH changed his tune about that and created a new covenant between Humans and Himself, that we could worship such images as long as it was [?] [whatever it was decreed - names vary] and the focus was on "Jah-Savior-The-Biblical" "So Be It"...

...then the questions come into play for said Christians to answer, or side-step as they each choose...
We get these passages which imply that Wholly Revelational biblical Jesus knew all along that Human Beings would never be able to achieve that, and he would eventually have to come back and do it for them, himself.

Q But why go away at all, if that were the case?

Q: Can you please provide the statements from Christ where He tells Christians to build the Kingdom of God over the face of the planet? And also the statement from Christ where He said His return would potentially hinge upon them doing that?

I doubt that. Why do you ask? I do not recall stating that at all.

Was it because The Father was trying to show him something about Human Beings being useless for such a task set?
Yet clearly we have evidence of Jesus' faith in Human Beings being able to achieve such a thing, if only they did what he asked them to do, which he must have been sure would be what would happen...only...

Please provide that evidence.

What evidence?
Perhaps you will accept this;

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love?

And connect that with;

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets?

One, plus the other equates "Humans are commissioned to build The Father Kingdom over the face of the whole Earth."

We get these passages which tell us that no, he knew all along that Human Beings would never be able to achieve that, and he would eventually have to come back and do it himself.

Perhaps then you should consider that the things you are claiming about Christ are not consistent with what He claimed about Himself or what He did or what He promised.

I don't even understand why you would say such a thing Tam. I am not hereabouts to defend or attack "What Jesus Said". I am here to defend my position against the attacking procedures of those claiming to be in the "true" Christian position.

You need to step the reader through your thinking process on this - provide bullet-points showing where I am obviously incorrect about "What Jesus Said".
Just stating it, doesn't amount to anything more than a bluff-reach for ones still-hilted sword. Are we hereabouts to do battle, or just wave our pink-bits around the keyboard.


Show us the conflicting evidence you have. Present us with the good news therein.

Meantime, I Am The Resistor to your Roaring Lion[ess]. [1 Peter 5:8]

Q: But why go away at all, if that were the case?

He answered that question.

To prepare a place for us in the Father's house John 14:2; to send holy spirit/the water of LIFE (poured out from the Son, given to Him without end from His Father) John 16:7; to continue to call His sheep, to train us and teach us and lead us into all truth John 10:16; John 16; to continue to build up the Temple that is His body; to go to the Father John 7:33; 14:28.


Plus it was not yet the appointed time (Acts 1:7). Many things had to happen first (such as some of those things listed in Matt 24). Not everyone had yet been born, who would be called and chosen.

There is more in Revelation (that is consistent with what Christ said above).

Okay so you provide evidence from John. Anything from the other Gospel authors to support John?

To prepare a place for us in the Father's house?

Q: What is that House? Another planet which is not like this house?
We are not informed?

To send holy spirit/the water of LIFE poured out from the Son, given to Him without end from His Father?
Sounds like a garden statue at the front of the house...a symbolic work of art...


Q: What is the purpose of this water being poured out? Is it for Humans to be activated to build The Fathers Kingdom over the face of The Earth, or for some other thing?

Examining such reasoning, we can ascertain that this "staying away until it is time to return" could be perpetual...which amounts to the same thing as Jesus never returning, and we either build it or fail as a specie.

Jesus gave Humans the Recipe - it is u to us whether we want to make the cake or not

Jesus will of course go along with anything his Father decrees. To date no such decree has happened re the grand entrance...

It may be that humans did not know that about themselves, but that is not something that Christ said humans could do, or that this world would accomplish. In fact, He said that great tribulations were coming (that those days needed to be cut short for the sake of the elect), that the world would hate His disciples (as the world hated Him), that His disciples would be persecuted and hated on account of His name. That if people rejected Him, they would also reject those He sent.

Yes, yes, but we know now that such talk comes from those with personality disorders...we now know that kind of talk was natural for its day, but things change as we get more information into our awareness.

We now know that over the course of the 20th century, fantasies of persecution became the defining modern delusion. Those who suffer persecution complex are treated accordingly.

The trend among Christian sufferers might continue as Jesus stays away. The Father might see this as an acceptable toll.

We also know that it was acceptable in The Fathers sight, for all the suffering Humans have caused to themselves, others and the general environment over those past 20 centuries.

IF it were a case of waiting until the last minute to stop that madness, one is best to take into account that such would have best been done before the age of enlightenment whereby Humans came into knowledge of just what the universe consisted of...how is Jesus expected to get worship from those who would see his return as being Extraterrestrials pretending to be creators of said Universe?

Or would that not matter, so long as they fixed our problems? A fair exchange?

Meantime, perhaps secretly Jesus is somewhere on Earth pulling levelers and flicking switches behind the scenes...perhaps hoping to make it possibly for Humans to think that they made it happen while all the while it was him secretly doing so...but that would also mean that a type of co-creation between Christ and Humans was occurring.

Is that something He said He was going to do, William?

Is that something he said he wasn't going to do Tam? Those things he is attributed with saying re his return, depend upon The Father giving him the go-ahead.

Until that day comes, we are left with opportunity as a specie, to build for ourselves something we can truly be happy within.
Looking at the bigger picture we see there are those who are useful to The Fathers vision of Humans on Earth...and they appear to be in suitable positions in which their work rewards them with the possibility of surviving the worse of what is to come...before Jesus gets here, if he is ever sent.

Doesn't that also include an element of deception?

Nope. Just procedure as per The Fathers commands. The Christ is neither deceiving, nor being deceived, should The Father choose to change His mind and not send Jesus back in a manner that every eye will see.

There is nothing deceptive in Jesus coming back under the radar and tweaking the game from within, if in doing so the result is the eventual building of The Fathers Kingdom over the face of the Earth.

[tam]

Peace again,

All of that William, and you did not back up your claims with what Christ said. You did not do the very thing that you asked others on this very thread TO do, whenever they made a claim.

Asking you to back up what you claim about what the Father or Christ said is a perfectly valid thing to do on this forum, and especially in this thread, considering the OP you created.

That you have not been able to do so should tell you something (perhaps get you to do the same examination you are asking others to do on this thread).

But at the very least, it should tell the reader something.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #67]

I certainly did offer some script attributed to Jesus in order to back up my thoughts re what Jesus might or might not be doing Tam.

So yes - let the readers decide. I have nothing more to add and won't waste my time with the strawman chaff you are responding with.

[onewithhim]

We are the only religion in the world that is witnessing for Jehovah. If you don't believe that, just mention "Jehovah" to anyone and they immediately think of Jehovah's Witnesses. No one else.

I'd argue that's because "Jehovah" is anachronistic and a bit quaint. "Yahweh" is a far more common transliteration of the tetragrammaton and I'd wager that relatively few people think of Jehovah's Witnesses when that name is mentioned. "Jehovah" is most often associated with Jehovah's Witnesses for the same reason that Peking is a style of roasted duck and Ceylon is a kind of tea.

What name for God do most people have in their Bibles?
The King James Version translates the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) as "JEHOVAH." (See Psalm 83:18 and Isaiah 26:4; there are two more places it appears in the KJV, and 7,000 times in the original Hebrew manuscriipts.) The point is, most people in the English speaking world are familiar with the KJV and thus have been exposed to the pronunciation "JEHOVAH" for the last 500 years at least. This is the most common understanding. That is why JWs call themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" in English. In other languages there are other pronunciations. And you can bet that if anyone mentions His name in any of those languages, they will immediately be thought of as YHWH's Witnesses (however it is pronounced in that language).

[onewithhim]

We are the only religion in the world that is witnessing for Jehovah. If you don't believe that, just mention "Jehovah" to anyone and they immediately think of Jehovah's Witnesses. No one else.

I'd argue that's because "Jehovah" is anachronistic and a bit quaint. "Yahweh" is a far more common transliteration of the tetragrammaton and I'd wager that relatively few people think of Jehovah's Witnesses when that name is mentioned. "Jehovah" is most often associated with Jehovah's Witnesses for the same reason that Peking is a style of roasted duck and Ceylon is a kind of tea.

Correct observation Difflugia.

It is also pertinent that YHWH as a powerful god, became obsolete when the Romans destroyed the temple which was made in YHWHs honor...such are the rules of the God-Game.

That once fierce and fearful mighty being is a far-cry from the door-tapping reps the JWOrg put out and about into the world.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to put the 'wise' men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to being to nothing the things that are, so that no one might boast in the sight of God." (I Corinthians 1:27-29)


.