Was God's/Jesus's Word(s) meant to sometimes be vague/mysterious?
Are humans just too stupid to collectively associate the correct intended conclusions behind some of these claimed Bible passages?
Should the reader of the Bible's claims, be at mere face value, even if the seemingly axiomatic claim does not look to comport with later human discovery?
Should the reader conclude, if the claimed passage does not align with discovery, that this is not what God actually meant?
Why would God not want His message(s) to be abundantly clear, which is evident by the reality that we have many mutually opposing sects in Christianity?
I'll stop here....
Thank you in advance!
Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Moderator: Moderators
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3634
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1644 times
- Been thanked: 1099 times
Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #1
Last edited by POI on Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #2God sure does seem 'mysterious'. But is it that, or poor planning and later editing by biblical writers?POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:54 am Was God's/Jesus's Word(s) meant to sometimes be vague/mysterious?
1) Are humans just too stupid to collectively associate the correct intended conclusions behind some of these claimed Bible passages?
2) Should the reader reader the Bible's claims, at mere face value, even if the seemingly axiomatic claim does not look to comport with later human discovery?
3) Should the reader conclude, if the claimed passage does not align with discovery, that this is not what God actually meant?
4) Why would God not want His message(s) to be abundantly clear, which is evident by the reality that we have many mutually opposing sects in Christianity?
I'll stop here....
Thank you in advance!
To the numbered points above:
1) A mortal, imperfect being trying to understand a perfect immortal being isn't possible. One would either need to be made perfect or the other imperfect. Of course, there's 'the spirit' that myth and legend says (according to some sects) as an intercessory, though I find that nothing more than an 'Oops...we messed up... we need a band-aid STAT!'
2) If you're asking if the reader should accept claims (your wording threw me off), then YES, if they want to do so. Otherwise, no.
3) Again, if they want to, sure. It seems even if they shouldn't, it doesn't matter. The reader will take from it what they want, ignore what they want, and call it 'a day'.
4) Either god's playing games with humanity, doesn't care any more, never did, is gone/dead, or isn't real. Any 'thing' (all encompassing including but not limited to deity) that wants its message to be clear would make it so. If humanity can 'jack up' god's plan and cause confusion and discourse, we have to ask if god is enough to actually worship in the first place.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3634
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1644 times
- Been thanked: 1099 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #3Thank you for your intuitive assessment. I'll leave these questions to interested theists who care to answer/respond.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:13 pmGod sure does seem 'mysterious'. But is it that, or poor planning and later editing by biblical writers?POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:54 am Was God's/Jesus's Word(s) meant to sometimes be vague/mysterious?
1) Are humans just too stupid to collectively associate the correct intended conclusions behind some of these claimed Bible passages?
2) Should the reader reader the Bible's claims, at mere face value, even if the seemingly axiomatic claim does not look to comport with later human discovery?
3) Should the reader conclude, if the claimed passage does not align with discovery, that this is not what God actually meant?
4) Why would God not want His message(s) to be abundantly clear, which is evident by the reality that we have many mutually opposing sects in Christianity?
I'll stop here....
Thank you in advance!
To the numbered points above:
1) A mortal, imperfect being trying to understand a perfect immortal being isn't possible. One would either need to be made perfect or the other imperfect. Of course, there's 'the spirit' that myth and legend says (according to some sects) as an intercessory, though I find that nothing more than an 'Oops...we messed up... we need a band-aid STAT!'
2) If you're asking if the reader should accept claims (your wording threw me off), then YES, if they want to do so. Otherwise, no.
3) Again, if they want to, sure. It seems even if they shouldn't, it doesn't matter. The reader will take from it what they want, ignore what they want, and call it 'a day'.
4) Either god's playing games with humanity, doesn't care any more, never did, is gone/dead, or isn't real. Any 'thing' (all encompassing including but not limited to deity) that wants its message to be clear would make it so. If humanity can 'jack up' god's plan and cause confusion and discourse, we have to ask if god is enough to actually worship in the first place.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8412
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 977 times
- Been thanked: 3628 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #4Of course. The idea is that some (predetermined in God's Plan) are not going to understand and be saved, and others are.
Luke 8. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I recall that Mark even says that God has hardened their hearts so that they will not be able to understand. I'll check that.
Luke 8. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I recall that Mark even says that God has hardened their hearts so that they will not be able to understand. I'll check that.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8412
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 977 times
- Been thanked: 3628 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #5p.s Ah This must be what I was thinking of.
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
In the context of the (cryptic) parables, it puts a bit of the puzzle in place. God already knows who he intends to be save and whom not and he hardens the hearts of some so that they won't understand the parables. And damn' the free will.
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
In the context of the (cryptic) parables, it puts a bit of the puzzle in place. God already knows who he intends to be save and whom not and he hardens the hearts of some so that they won't understand the parables. And damn' the free will.
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #6None can show a god exists to have him a thought.POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:54 am Was God's/Jesus's Word(s) meant to sometimes be vague/mysterious?
Are humans just too stupid to collectively associate the correct intended conclusions behind some of these claimed Bible passages?
Should the reader of the Bible's claims, be at mere face value, even if the seemingly axiomatic claim does not look to comport with later human discovery?
Should the reader conclude, if the claimed passage does not align with discovery, that this is not what God actually meant?
Why would God not want His message(s) to be abundantly clear, which is evident by the reality that we have many mutually opposing sects in Christianity?
That he'd think all cryptic and all, if he could.
This OP suffers it the problem of assuming facts which can't be shown to be truth.
It's the shell game of the Christian pretending their claims have a basis in reality.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2705
- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 486 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #7[Replying to nobspeople in post #2]
--Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason"
"No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it."If you're asking if the reader should accept claims (your wording threw me off), then YES, if they want to do so. Otherwise, no.
--Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason"
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11562
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 333 times
- Been thanked: 376 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #8I think the message is abundantly clear for all who remain in truth. The problems come when people begin to make interpretations so that they could fit God's word to their own doctrines and desires.
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2705
- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 486 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #9That certainly seems to happen a lot, but how do we determine who's in truth and who's doing the interpreting?
- Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8503
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2151 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Re: Was God's Intent To Be Cryptic?
Post #10There are certainly plenty of different interpretations. I'm not convinced that is the result of people trying to "fit God's word to their own doctrines and desires." What I see is folks trying to make sense out of a book that as a whole is incomprehensible. It's not because of any nefarious intentions on their part necessarily, but that there is no way to reconcile the many contradictions and ambiguities. Rather than acknowledging this, some who have their chosen views accuse others who disagree of dishonesty. Nope, the message is quite simply a hot mess.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:42 pmThat certainly seems to happen a lot, but how do we determine who's in truth and who's doing the interpreting?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom